Comrade:Literallywho Ingodsname/sandbox

Testimony of ULRICH VON GIENANTH, taken at Nurnberg, Germany, 30 April 1946, by Mr. O. John Rogge, 1430 – 1700. Also present: Dr. R. M. W. Kempner; Mr. Paul Ertzinger; Piilani A. Ahuna, Court Reporter.

INDEX

My work for the German Library of Information in New York.......................1 – 7

My Duties as Attache of the Propaganda Ministry in Washington.....................8 – 14

The Financial Means at my Disposal.............14 – 17

My Position in Washington During the War..........18 – 21

Laura Ingalls........................21 – 23

Testimony of ULRICH VON GIENANTH, taken at Nurnberg, Germany, 30 April 1946, by Mr. O. John Rogge, 1430 – 1700. Also present: Dr. R. M. W. Kempner; Mr. Paul E. Ertzinger; Piilani A. Ahuna, Court Reporter.

(The interrogation was conducted in English.)

MY WORK FOR THE GERMAN LIBRARY OF INFORMATION IN NEW YORK

QUESTION BY MR. ROGGE:

Q: Now, Mr. Gienanth, will you tell us the full story of your activities in the United States during the time you served there as a representative of the German Government?

A: In February or March, 1935, I was engaged by the Propaganda Ministry to start a German library of information in New York in accordance with the proposal of the propaganda attache, Dr. Sallet, in Washington. I was engaged by the chief of the foreign division of the Propaganda Ministry, Mr. Hasenoerl, and Mr. von Feldmann, in charge of the American desk at this division.

I arrived in the States in April and found out upon my arrival that the German embassy in Washington and the Consul General in New York had not been informed about those plans and that they did not agree with — and therefore, did not agree with my plans. For this reason, I used my team at once to reorganize the Junior Year for American Students in Munich which kept me active until the end of July.

As this trouble with the Consulate and the Embassy went on, after a certain time in Washington I took a small apartment in New York somewhere about 85th West Street. The address can be found in the telephone book in New York. I forgot it.

In December, a member of the Propaganda Ministry who had..

Q: This is December 1935?

A: Yes, December 1935, a member of the Propaganda Ministry who had carried out a trip throughout the States for the organization of gramophone record archives had a conversation with the Consulate General and he finally agreed that I should move into the Consulate. Up to that time I had a large collection of books which had arrived from Berlin in my apartment and I had worked out some answers to questions which had come into the Consulate from the American public.

From spring, 1936, I had my own room in the Consulate, was a member of the Consulate, and had my own secretary. My work consisted of answering requests for information which came in from the public, such as questions from magazines like Time and Fortune, from newspapers, for encyclopedias and schools, etc. During that time I had — my correspondence with Germany was very large. Because we had no similar office in Berlin to collect the material for the library there, I had to correspond with all different kinds of Party offices, Government bureaus, private societies, etc. Besides that I still had a large, constant correspondence with the exchange students' service because I still helped the Junior Year along with advice and help.

In the summer of 1936 and 37 I spent some time in Germany and in the summer of 1937 I was appointed attache of the Propaganda Ministry in the Embassy as superior of the above mentioned Dr. Sallet. Until spring, 1938, I still had to direct the work of the library in New York myself besides my job as attache and I mostly spent two or three days in New York to do this work.

In spring, 1938, Mr. Beller who had been engaged by the Propaganda Ministry in Berlin came to New York and took over the library. In the course of his presence in New York, the library enlarged to a certain extent. Two secretaries, female secretaries, who were engaged by the Propaganda Ministry came to New York. Because Mr. Beller, however, did not do the work well enough, I asked Dr. Schmitz from Smith College to come in regular intervals to New York beginning in the winters of 1938 – 1939, to help Mr. Beller in drafting the answers and doing the work.

In May, 1939, the library information put out its first political publication by sending out the speech of Hitler which he gave at the end of April, in the form of pamphlets in the English language. In the spring of 1940, Mr. Beller returned to Germany at his own request. Dr. Schmitz, who was in Germany in the summer of 1939...

Q: This is Matthias Schmitz all the time?

A: Yes.

Q: You met the other Schmitz, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: Didn't you mention something about the meetings at his house?

A: No. At his house only once or twice.

Q: Didn't you know something about the money he spent?

A: I never saw his expenditure account.

Q: It was substantial.

A: Yes, I suppose so. He had quite an office and did quite a lot of work.

Q: it wasn't just tourist traffic.

A: What he did besides tourist traffic I don't know.

Q: It was on propaganda because I saw some of the reports which he submitted. I saw them.

A: If you mean those mimeographed reports, I saw those also, yes.

Q: No, I don't mean those. He wrote reports back copies of which are in the foreign office in the United States so I know he was engaged in propaganda activities and it seems to me that one engaged in the propaganda ministry should have known about that. How could he engage on propaganda in such a large scale and the embassy not know about it?

A: He was very secretive. He wanted to impress Berlin always as a very important man.

Q: You would call him an egotist?

A: yes.. He is the kind of a man who likes to boast about the things he did.

Q: He certainly did that with his written documents. If he did the things which he said he did his activities would reach such a scale I don't know how you did not learn about them. Well, go on with your story.

A: ...returned to New York in October and was made the second man in charge of the library. He was with Smith College by that time. After Mr. Beller had left, Dr. Schmitz became director of the library.

During the course of the war the library increased to a staff of about 30 employees. Should I tell you the names as far as I can remember them? They are on record on New York...

Q: I think for the time being we can leave them out. I think we have most of them.

A: Frankly, I couldn't give more than 5 or 6 altogether.

Q: That's all right, we can leave that for the time being.

A: This was a proof to me about how many names I have forgotten. The library information, during the war, worked one part for the foreign office and on the other part for the propaganda ministry. In this way the library was also financed and Dr. Schmitz personally had contact with the propaganda ministry before leaving Germany.

In the beginning, when he arrived, a new order had been issued by Hitler that all political propaganda in foreign countries was subject to the foreign office and not to the Propaganda Ministry. Therefore, all things in this line carried out by the library of information had to be financed and were financed by the foreign office. So far as I remember, by the Cultural Division in the foreign office, at the time under Mr. Altenburg.

Those subjects included first: Facts in Review; Second, all white books; third, Information on Political Problems, Salaries for people who worked for it, etc.; Fourth, cutting of records of the speeches of the German shortwave transmitters which sometimes were used as material for facts in review.

The cultural section of the library information was financed by money from the Propaganda Ministry. First, publication of bulletins on this subject, for instance, German forests; salaries connected with it, for instance, foreign scientists who had come from Japan — I don't know his name although he worked in the library for quite a while. Second, Kaspar David Frederick's book on this painter. Third, the section with films and gramophone records to be laid out.

Dr. Schmitz personally, as I mentioned, had a contact with the Propaganda Ministry. According to the order from Berlin concerning political propaganda, the Consulate General, upon order of the foreign office, made a contact with Schmitz on a higher salary but despite that Schmitz got his old salary from the Propaganda Ministry. The two secretaries who had been engaged during the time of Dr. Beller remained at the Consulate. Both of them returned during the war so far as I remember. They returned during the war before the end of diplomatic relations.

The additional amount which the library information got from the Propaganda Ministry came, so far as I guess, directly from Berlin upon proposal of Dr. Schmitz directly to Berlin. I don't know those details anymore. It's too far back. Dr. Schmitz certainly would know all the details about it.

Q: One of the things in which I am interested is the amount of money the German library of information got from Germany. It must have exceeded $50,000 in cash.

A: Altogether during the war?

Q: During the years 1940 and 1941.

A: I couldn't give you an answer on that as to whether that's correct, but I did not go into all the expenses of facts in review and for all of these other activities. If one goes into the expenses of these activities one should get quite a complete record on it. The Facts in Review was printed in New York and Schmitz must have known about it. I didn't hand the money over, it was handed over by Mr. von Strempel.

Q: He did. How did you know that?

A: I know because if I had to get some money personally I always had to tell von Strempel. That's what I remember. Maybe it came from Berlin directly too, I don't know.

Q: The money from the Embassy, the $60,000 I am talking about, Strempel carried to New York from time to time.

A: That's beyond my knowledge.

Q: That amazes me, but nevertheless, go ahead.

A: The accounting of the money which the library information spent for the propaganda ministry was countersigned by myself.

Q: Then how come you couldn't remember about this money that was sent by the Embassy?

A: I only know of the money from the propaganda ministry.

Q: You only countersigned for the money of the propaganda ministry?

A: Yes.

Q: Go ahead.

A: The amount of this money I do not remember in particular anymore. But, concerning the money spent in the first half year of 1941, I left in the safe in the Embassy in Washington, with my signature underneath, but with the name "Library Information" cut out with a scissors. I did that — I kept that statement there because we were not allowed to take any reports along to Germany. Neither did Schmitz when he returned, nor myself, and I wanted to be able to state, after the war, clearly how much money the Consulate had handed out to the library for the propaganda ministry, or vice versa, how much money the library of information had given back to the Consulate.

MY DUTIES AS ATTACHE OF THE PROPAGANDA MINISTRY IN WASHINGTON.

During my stay in Germany in the summer of 1937, I was appointed Attache of the Propaganda Ministry at the Embassy in Washington. As a successor of Dr. Sallet. This corresponded to similar kinds of institutions at other administrations of the German government. Other attaches during the years before the war were:

Mr. Fitz Randolph --- London

Mr. Faber --- Paris

Mr. Koehn --- South America, either in Argentina or Brazil

Mr. Husshahn --- Holland

(I have forgotten the name of the attache in --- Madrid.

That's all.

As attache of the Propaganda Ministry, I was supposed to have the same position as, for instance, the Military Attache. I had my own office, I wrote my reports, I signed them myself, I wrote my reports to the Propaganda Ministry by way of the foreign office, signed by myself, and countersigned with "Seen by the Chief of Mission".

I went to Washington in December, 1937. I had one secretary, I cannot remember her name — I don't know it anymore — one secretary who had been with my predecessor but who returned after obtaining her B.A. at the University of Washington. My second secretary, which I engaged a year later, was Miss von Naso, who returned to Germany in May, 1940.

My duties at the Embassy included all the same fields for which the Propaganda Ministry was responsible in Germany. First, political propaganda; second, film; third, literature; 4th, radio; fifth, press; sixth, music; and seventh, art.

FIRST, POLITICAL PROPAGANDA: Theoretically, I should have been in charge of propagandizing the United States in a political way. This was not possible because of lack of means. I therefore, however, accepted invitation myself for speeches in universities, etc. I tried to get speakers to present the German cause. The two I can remember who lived in the United States were Dr. Friedrich Anhagen and Dr. Lemann.

One of my main objectives in political affairs was to report regularly on the political opinions in the United States. For that reason I very often asked my friends and acquaintances about their opinions.

SECOND, FILMS: I had to take care of the complete reporting of the American film production, especially on the anti-German films—on their propaganda effects in the different parts of the country. For this purpose, I often advised the Consulate to send me reports on this matter. Very active was the Consulate in Los Angeles, which regularly reported to me on films which were in the making.

Other fields of activity I may just mention, which is constant contact with the U.P.A. in New York which brought out the German films in America. I requested very strongly in Berlin that only one representative of the German film companies should be in America. I had to help Mrs. Riefenstahl...

Q: Who's that? Lili?

A: Lili Riefenstahl, yes, who came over one winter and tried to place the Olympia film. I had constant contact with the film library of the Museum of Modern Art which constantly wanted to have specific German films given to them, or given to them in the way of exchange. I had dealings indirectly with March of Time when they issued the film "Inside Nazi Germany". The material which got into their hands was against agreements.

Q: In that connection, did you meet a man by the name of Henry D. Allen?

A: No, but I met this man who took the shots in Germany. I don't know his name anymore.

THIRD, LITERATURE: I have tried to collect all the books published in the United States referring to Germany, especially anti-Nazi books, and send them to the Propaganda Ministry for the Central Library. At the same time I made regular reports on the effect of the different books in America by using the literary sections of the daily papers and other statements. I often had contact with Westermann on how the German books could be promoted in the United States.

Q: Do you remember how he got his money?

A: He was quite a bit in with Berlin.

Q: He also got some money through the New York Consulate. I don't know whose funds, but I do know that. Didn't you know that?

A: No.

Q: Didn't you know about the funds he got from the New York Consulate?

A: No.

Q: Didn't you have any idea about that?

A: No.

Q: That seems strange. Employees of the Consulate have told us about these monies which were sent to him. They were addressed to the foreign office, but it may have been for the use of the Propaganda Ministry, I cannot recall. You did know that he was indebted, didn't you?

A: Yes, I knew that.

Q: To whom?

A: To Berlin.

Q: How do you know that?

A: I know it.

Q: Didn't you know he got money from the Consulate to take care of these things?

A: Those things would be a different affair, because if he was indebted to Berlin, that was a question of credit in marks.

Q: He got good American dollars from the Consulate.

A: I don't know anything about that.

Q: Then go ahead with your story.

A: The book exhibits in Chicago, for instance, were one of the things I had to deal with.

FOURTH, RADIO: The Propaganda Ministry wanted to hear constantly what effect the German short wave transmitter had in America. In the first years, I gave a general report on my opinion on the quality but during the war I concentrated on that and had a special man in New York who was attached to the Library of Information who was recording daily the strength and the audibility of the German transmitter. In addition to that he cut plates with a text of the speech on the one hand used, if possible, as material for Facts in Review, and on the other hand, for me to hear the speeches of the different speakers and to pass judgment on it and to send it to Berlin.

FIFTH, PRESS: In regard to the press I didn't do very much because the Embassy and Dr. Sell who helped...

Q: What's his first name?

A: Kurt.

Q: Wasn't he the D.N.D. representative?

A: yes, he was.

Q: Did he also have official functions in addition to the DND? Of course, the DND was an official agency.

A: Yes, but he came to the Embassy every day and to the press conferences and advised the representatives and all that.

Q: If I have gathered your statement correctly, Sell, in effect, had official duties just the way you did? I mean, official duties for the Government. Innocent.

A: He brought, for instance, the everyday statements from the Press Club in Washington and handed them in to the foreign clubs, all the statements of the State Department and he got those. After he got those he gave them to the Embassy.

Q: He also gave the Embassy a bias from them?

A Yes.

BY MR. ERTZINGER:

Q: Was this Kurt or Georg Sell?

A: Kurt.

BY MR. ROGGE:

Q: Sell gave advice regularly on press meetings to the Embassy.

A: He came every day to the press conferences and stated what he knew of the situation.

Besides, always one member from the foreign office was in charge of the press desk at the Embassy. Therefore, the only thing I had to do in the field of the press was from time to time writing characteristic on Americans or their journals which were supposed to be taken into the file of the press department of the Propaganda Ministry.

SIXTH, MUSIC: The organization of concert tours in the United States was the thing I had to deal with. For instance, the two concert tours of Mrs. Johanna Keller, who came once with the Fiedel Trio and another year with the Berlin Kammer Orchestra (7), Chamber Music. For the most part I was active in the organization of the Kreuz Corps from Dresden.

SEVENTH, ART: Only a small number of things occurred in this field. The Karl Schultz Memorial Foundation in Philadelphia I think for a time was planning a new exhibition.

After I was appointed propaganda attache, I several times had to take over the cultural desk for the Embassy which dealt with all other things concerning the ministry of education, universities, schools, professors, exchange students, etc. Since I was a former exchange student myself, I always was very active in trying to promote new plans for furthering cultural relations between the two countries. I made several long reports on possibilities of exchange of medical doctors and enlarging the student exchange of high school students, the exchange of high school teachers, the invitations for young American actors to be educated on German stages or to get their training on German stages and so on.

THE FINANCIAL MEANS AT MY DISPOSAL

Q: The records of the foreign office show that you got more than 1,800 marks every three months.

A: No, $1,800.

Q: Did you say $1,800? No, it seemed more than that. What you got every three months sometimes ran over $2,100. There were quarterly periods when you got $2,100 or more.

A: I know that every month I couldn't spend more than $600 or $700.

Q: I remember your saying the other day that it was $2,100 regularly.

A: $2,100 regularly?

Q: Yes, here it is. January, February, March – $2,104.73; April, May, June – $2,102.63; July, August, September – $2,105.25; and so on.

A: That was correct, yes. Maybe it is for that reason I made that mistake because the Embassy always took away the rent of my rooms out of the $615 I could spend. I think I could spend $45 on my roms.

Q: There is a slight discrepancy. You told us you paid your rent out of the $600.

A: I am sorry I made that mistake.

Q: That's alright. I'm calling that a minor error.

Who was Alfred Luckenhaus?

A: He was chief of the D.N.D. in New York. Later he went to China.

Q: Go ahead. I am calling your attention to the fact that these figures were for 1939. They may have been slightly higher during 1940 or 1941. I don't have the figures here now, but I will have them. If they were higher in 1940 and 1941, then I want you to tell me because I will know what they were very soon.

A: Well, I didn't accept the money anymore after that.

Q: You were going into the financial means at your disposal. I just wanted it as exact as possible. I know that during 1939 it was $2,100 or a little money. This was the figure for every three months, which would be more than $700 per month.

A: $2,100 would only be $700 per month.

Q: The other day you said $600 per month. Before you start in with your story today, the records show you got $2,100 as it was every three months. If it was more in 1940 and 1941, I will also know that. I do not have the figures here today but I will know it.

A: Yes, I had funds for special expenditures which were $2,100 every three months. Out of this fund I had to pay rent for my rooms at the Embassy, expenditures for office material, my trips — including those trips to New York for the library, and my per diem.

Q: Do you know that the secret funds which the Embassy got in a two month period at the end of 1938 was over a half million reichsmarks? That was secret. What did they do with that money?

A: You will have to ask the man in the foreign office who was in charge.

Q: But you were there.

A: Yes, but I don't know about that.

Q: Then, go ahead with your story.

A: I will start with my traveling expenses and the salary for Mr. Liesijang in Chicago, the expenses for the upkeep of the film machines, the different Consulates, the expenses for sending the films around, the expenses for Dr. Schmitz when he helped Mr. Beller in New York, and the buying of anti-Nazi books for the Propaganda Ministry, and the helping with smaller funds which went to the gramophone record archives in New York, which was, before the Foreign Agent's Registration Law, in the hands of Mr. Kotz. This money I received regularly and I sent the statements on my expenditures directly to the Propaganda Ministry. The man in charge there was Mr. Clemm.

When I was nominated Cultural Attache for the foreign office in the spring of 1940, I informed the Propaganda Ministry through Miss von Naso, my secretary who was traveling back to Germany in May, 1940, that since I now worked only for the foreign office I would not make use of this money anymore from the summer on.

Q: You had funds at your disposal, however?

A: That I couldn't personally decide about. They may have sent it.

Q: When did you say this money stopped coming in?

A: Well, I didn't accept it anymore from May or June, 1940. If it still arrived, then the Embassy didn't give it to me.

Q: You still got it in October, November, and December of 1940?

A: Well then, the Embassy got it and didn't give it to me. You have just told me that you have the record, and I would be foolish to make a wrong statement.

Miss von Naso went over in May with the last American boat to Italy, and at that time I had just received the order that I had become Cultural Attache in Washington and that I was personally taken over by the foreign office in full employment.

Q: But you got one of the sums of $2,100 in January, 1940.

A: Yes, that's right.

Q: You got another one on March 30, 1940, which, I take to be for April, May, and June?

A: It may have overlapped one or two months.

Q: I know you got one as late as December, 1940, which may have been for June, July, and August.

A: Yes, I got it.

Q: And you think this was the last one?

A: Yes, that's correct. You can ask Miss von Naso who can be a witness and Mr. Keil who always brought the money to me. He was kind of a chief clerk and was in charge and always brought the money to me.

MY POSITION IN WASHINGTON DURING THE WAR.

When the war started I was in Berlin. The Propaganda Ministry, for a short while, did not want me to go back to America. When the Foreign Office told me that they may take me into their circles, which I had always hoped to achieve some time, and that they wanted to send me back to Washington as Cultural Attache, I had a conference with Mr. Altenburg. When the Propaganda Ministry heard that the Foreign Office would send me to Washington again, they withdrew their decision and told me that I should go again for them. Mr. Altenburg, whom I asked for advice, told me that he would prefer seeing me go back to Washington as Propaganda Attache, or Attache for the Propaganda Ministry, because they knew me and they preferred me to somebody else — to anybody else.

When I arrived in Washington at the beginning of October they were quite surprised about my arrival because in the meantime Hitler had issued the order that propaganda in foreign countries was the only affair of the Foreign Office and in connection with that Ribbentrop had given the order that the Attaches of the Propaganda Ministry were not allowed anymore to report to their Ministry or to stay in contact with it. Therefore, at my Embassy, they had already taken away my secretary, transferring my secretary to the commercial division of the Embassy and my position was very uncertain.

Since Doctor Thompson wanted me at the Embassy anyhow, he suggested to the Foreign Office that I should be taken now into the service of the Foreign Office. In the meantime he asked me, in agreement with Mr. von Strempel that I should take charge of the publications of the library of information in New York and be the contact man between the Embassy and this organization. For some reason or other this did not last very long and I was taken into the legal department under the supervision of the first secretary, Resenberg. Temporarily, Mr. Resenberg was under the supervision of Chancellor Schulz.

Q: Herbert? Which Schulz is that?

A: He was the Chancellor of the Embassy.

Q: Go ahead.

A: In March, a telegram from Berlin arrived nominating me Cultural Attache of the Foreign Office, with a statement of the complete field which the Cultural Attache had to take care of. This new office of Cultural Attache, which, so far as I knew, was created under the direction of Mr. Luther, later Under Secretary of State of the Foreign Office, was created for the purpose of taking care of all political propaganda and cultural affairs. Since Mr. von Strempel, as chief of the Press Department of the Embassy was in charge of the political activities and publications, Dr. Thompson asked me to arrange my work with him. Mr. von Strempel and I agreed that he would continue with his work and I would only take over the purely cultural affairs concerning the Ministry of Education — concerning the field of the Ministry of Education, and certain other fields such as film, literature, reporting, and radio. That would mean also that I would take charge of the cultural section of the library or information which was, as I mentioned, being financed by the Propaganda Ministry.

My work as Cultural Attache I therefore had limited in an agreement with Dr. Thompson and von Strempel, that I would take care of the above mentioned matters. Special work was the repatriation of some groups of German high school students by way of Japan, professors who were stranded in America, correspondents with universities, etc. Later I got especially the order from Dr. Thompson to report regularly on the activities of Nelson D. Rockefeller in South America, especially for the information of our South American missions.

I often had business with the Westermann Book Store because they had trouble getting books from Germany which had to be sent by way of Siberia, and he same with the Smithsonian Institute, etc.

Q: You don't mean to classify Westermann and the Smithsonian Institute on the same level, do you?

A: I am sorry I said it. Naturally, I could not classify the Smithsonian Institute as an American Institute for exchange of international exchange of books in contrast to Westermann Company which sold German books in New York, and which, as far as I know, was quite indebted in Berlin to an Institute by the names of Veritas or Cautio. So far as I know, this was under the administration of Burgomaster Winkler who was in some dependence who was in some dependence or connection with the German Reich, and who also took orders from them.

Eventually the cultural work in America, through the events of the war and the general feeling towards Germany, decreased more and more. It happened often that I was ordered to take over special work. I had in my instructions, several instructions to travel as courier to different consulates. I had to work on certain special projects which were handed to me to work on.

In this connection I took care of the Laura Ingalls case and I had, after the closing up of the Consulate, for instance, to go quite often to New York to organize the sending of American newspapers to addresses in Portugal for the Foreign Office and especially the Rundfunk (Radio Division of the Foreign Office). This was necessary because the censorship of the American airplanes in Bermuda took off the mail which was addressed to Germany. That was the reason for this.

That's quite a short draft of all the things.

Q: Let's have the details on the Laura Ingalls thing.

A: What details? About those I told you the last time?

Q: Yes, but we do not have them in the statement.

(Dr. Kempner left the room at this point.)

A: The whole story? From the beginning?

Q: Yes, as you now remember it.

A: The first time that I heard of Laura Ingalls was when my house maid, Wagner, told me that an acquaintance of his, Miss Kraus, had told him that Laura Ingalls wanted to see me. I received her in my home in Bethesda, and there she explained to me that she wanted to give speeches with the purpose of keeping America out of the war. She told me also that she had visited Dr. Thompson before.

Then I talked to Mr. von Strempel and to Dr. Thompson who both knew about her. I had the impression that both of them were not very anxious to see her and I got the order to keep in contact with her.

Since Laura Ingalls wanted to have some assistance from the Embassy, financial assistance from the Embassy, I was authorized to tell her that she would get some money for travelling expenses during her voyages.

I saw her, altogether, three or four times. Once, in the first apartment of Miss Kraus near Massachusetts Avenue, and about twice or three times in my home, and once in New York.

Q: How much did you pay her?

A: About $500 or $600.

Q: Didn't you have an arrangement with her to pay her so much a month?

A: No. Pay her every month a certain amount?

Q: She wrote in one of her letters to Ingalls that there was so much due her and then she would be paid up for December. From that one would infer that you paid her so much a month.

A: That's six years ago. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. I don't think it was over a thousand.

Q: It was under a thousand, that's right. It was $500 or $600.

A: If I did, I would have to guess at the amount.

Q: I don't want you to guess unless I ask you for your best guess. Tell us — you should remember that on the same morning that Wagner brought over these reports, that Ingalls sent over for you?

A: You told me that the last time and I couldn't remember. I think I can remember now that I got from her, upon my request, I asked her for the expense account and a list of the places where she spoke and the names of the societies to which she spoke.

Q: Together with such comment the meetings she might care to make? She made comments on her receptions, didn't she?

A: Surely she did. Certainly, those things I wouldn't have minded hearing about.

Q: Yes. We thought you had an arrangement with her for $250 a month?

A: (Witness shrugs shoulders.) I don't know anymore.

Q: Go ahead. Have you given us all the information about this conversation when you told Laura Ingalls about the times Sunday morning/in which you and Hitler had done things in the early days?

A: I do not remember anymore, but Miss Kraus came to my room alone — or perhaps with Laura Ingalls, if you say she came.

Q: It is what she wrote in the letter. I wasn't there.

A: Miss Kraus, I remember that she was easily very enthusiastic. I think she was a bit crazy about me, or something like that.

Q: Ingalls was?

A: Maybe both, I don't know.

Q: Kraus was an old lady, wasn't she?

A: Yes, she was.

Q: Let's get on with the Burgomaster Winkler, about the Pilgrim Fathers circular by Nederhoed.

A: I think there was another author on the pamphlet. I think the name was White.

BY MR. ERTZINGER:

Q: Yes, but Mr. Nederhoed was the one that wrote it, wasn't he?

A: Yes, of course he wrote it. It is difficult, but I feel awfully bad about this.

Mr. Nederhoed I met — I don't know how I met Mr. Nederhoed, but he came up to me and he had this pamphlet on the Pilgrim Fathers either written or on a manuscript. I think it was already finished. But he proposed that we should — he asked whether we would buy a certain number of these pamphlets for the purpose of distributing them in the country and we bought a certain number which went into the thousands. There's no doubt about that. They were distributed and we paid him.

I don't know whether — I don't remember quite well anymore how the distribution was organized. I don't remember whether we took those and had them distributed through a mail order house or whether he did it. He probably did it. At least I remember he presented a bill to me which I paid, I got the money from the Embassy. How high the bill was... (witness shrugs.)

Q: $2,500?

A: No, it wasn't so much. I don't know anymore about what he did because if I did I would say something, but the fact that he presented a bill to me, I paid it to him in cash. How high it was I don't know because I really don't know anymore.

Q: Your remember another article of his, "Sir Uncle Sam — Knight of the British Empire?"

A: Yes, I remember. Before I started my statement I said something about it but I had forgotten about that. I don't remember the pamphlet anymore, but the name sounds familiar to me even though I