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== Domenico Losurdo: A Counter-Historian (2023-11-15 Crowdcast Talk) == | |||
Hi, welcome everyone. My name is Anita Reagan often and I'm a senior producer of cultural and special events at Toronto Public Library. Thank you for joining us for this conversation celebrating the life and work of Italian Marxist historian philosopher and politician dominical of Louisville. We start all of our events with the important reminder that the city of Toronto including all 100 branches of Toronto Public Library are situated on individual land and dish with one spoon territory the The traditional territory of the international me Confederacy the one that and the Mississauga's of the credit personation Toronto Public Library gratefully acknowledges these indigenous Nations for their guardianship this land. Since the most recent blockade and see Jean Gaza, I cannot in good conscience reidel and acknowledgement without acknowledging the ongoing settler Colonial violence both in Palestine and here in Canada in Gaza it is now estimated that 1 out of every 200 people have been killed as the death toll climbs over 11,000 the Canadian government and Elites stand firmly on the wrong side of History this past Sunday. I marched with tens of thousands of people in Toronto calling for a ceasefire. Fire and an end to the killing the contradictions are ripe and revolutionary fervor is in the air as if scrapbooks noted on social media. It is during dark and Dangerous times like these where the work of someone like the mini covid sort of is the fuel we need to keep going I want to thank my partner yvonne.stowe a kovitch for introducing me to a sir do and again thank you all for being here. A couple of very quick housekeeping items before we get started the chat box is located to the right of your screen. You're very active in there and I encourage you to share your thoughts and connect with each other. However, if you have a question for our guest today, please be sure to enter it into the ask a question box, which is also to the right of your screen underneath the chat icon. It's easier for us to To Track of questions entered there and it also allows you to upload other questions and if you look down to the bottom of your screen, there's a green button that says order a copy of stalling history and critique of a black legend that will take you to Escrow books. Where you can either purchase a copy or download a free pdf Toronto Public Library also has four copies available to check out moving us to the top of your screen you will see a TPL logo in a blue circle by clicking follow you can keep up to date with all of our excellent virtual. New event or as an event is about to go live for example on December 4th, Toronto Star books editor and author of on coughs Deborah Dundas will be in conversation with author of made and the newly released Memoir class. Definitely land right here on crowd house. I'll put these links in the chat in a minute and if you'd like to join us in person the next day on December 5th professors Norman Finkelstein and Christian parenti. We will discuss the current state of academic freedom in conversation with former broadcast journalist, Gene McGwire at the Appel salon and that is in person in Toronto. And now let's welcome the host and panel for today's event. Our host is Henry hakama lucky Henry is an activist and political Communicator who is primarily known for co-hosting the gorilla History Podcast and is co translator and editor of the new authorized English edition of Dominica. Lesotho Stalin. He can be followed on Twitter at Huck 1995 | |||
Hi Henry. | |||
Hello Anita, it's nice to be here. Thank you so much for hosting a pleasure, and we have an extraordinary line of the panelists today starting with Salvatore and multimodal Salvatore is professor and chair of geography and Environmental Studies department at SUNY New Paltz and Senior editor for capitalism nature socialism and Human Geography journals, because research areas include soil contamination Urban agriculture dialectical materialism and socialism and Environment socialist States and environment is among his latest books. Victoria | |||
Pull hello fantastic. Thank you, very much for inviting me. Thanks so much Henry chat Thanks for showing them for so kind of Here and next up is Gabriel Rock Hill Gabriel is a philosopher cultural critic and activist. He is the founding director of the critical theory workshop and professor of philosophy at Villanova University has published 9 books as well as numerous scholarly and journalistic articles for more information you can visit Gabriel Rock Hill the Cam | |||
Forward to it next let's welcome Jennifer Ponce De Leon's Jennifer is associate professor of English at the University of Pennsylvania. Do the author of another Aesthetics is possible Arts of rebellion in the fourth world war from Duke University press her other Publications include the co-authored introduction to the English translation of dominical the sort of Western Marxism. I cannot wait so it's coming from monthly review press | |||
Thank you so much for having me. | |||
Thank you for being here and last but certainly not least was very happy to welcome Roderick day to the panel Roderick is editor-in-chief of red sails dot-org a free access collection of communist Works ranging from select Classics to original Marxist theory and translations. He gained Acclaim for his work on Bolivia China Fascism and his opposition to brainwashing much of it inspired by this will go in his non spare time. He works as a software developer. Hey. | |||
Thank you. Happy to be here. Okay, and that's your panel. What an incredible lineup. I'm going to get out of here so that you can listen to this fantastic conversation and hand it over to Henry. Thank you Anita and I do want to open by expressing my appreciation for Anita and the Toronto Public Library for hosting this discussion and for inviting us to be the panel for the discussion really was Brave of the Toronto Public Library and anything particular to organize this event with this panel on these two. Topics and so all of the credit goes to her for making it possible and I also want to thank my panelists that we have before us for their work on lesueur do as well as beyond the sword. Oh, I'm really looking forward to the conversation and lastly I would like to thank oscura books the publisher of our new edition of Stalin history and critique of a black Legend So, I'm going to open the conversation today. Convening this panel is really Introducing why we're here. So I think the impetus for convening this panel is really twofold of course Lasorda was always relevant and should always be relevant and always will be relevant but in addition to the recent release of the Stalin book, there's also a forthcoming release of Western Marxism, which will be talking about a little bit later but the Stalin book in particular is an interesting story and just briefly We talked about how we need to have this exchange of ideas and I know that one of the future events is featuring professors Finkelstein and parenti about you know, freedom to expression within the academy. This book was actually subject to something similar in insofar as there was a publisher and I'll just say Verso books whose published several works of lizard owes who outright has denied for several years to publish the Stalin book to the point where we decided that we would just do Do it ourselves Salvatore and myself and iskra. And again, thanks to oscura. Not only agreed to publish the work and get the rights to publish the work but also is a need to mention make the PDF available for free for everyone which I think is a critically important thing that we that we did in one of the reasons that we were so enthusiastic to work with them was that willingness to make the PDF available as as well as all of our other books. So go to Escrow books dot org and check out their catalog. | |||
I'd like to get into the conversation today before we talk about the Cerritos works. We should probably talk about pool of sir. Do was I know that several individuals in the chat have talked about how they are very fond of lucero's work, but I am sure that not everyone who's listening to this is familiar with lesser do himself. So I'm going to turn this over to Salvatore at first to talk about who was Dominica lesueur do can you take give us a brief biographical background on him and maybe focus on his engagement with politics. Thanks very much. Sword of the main goals for do was a political philosopher historian right years. Sometimes he would label himself that way applying historical materialism and dialectical materialism to the development of ideas and ideologies and you can think about these two volumes that we are Focusing on as part of that project. He was a professor of the University would be you know in philosophy, but it was also a historian of sorts as well. And certainly that is much of what a devoted his work towards his is to look at the historical context of different philosophical movements the The breadth of the philosophical works there and philosophers they looked at is quite large Focus primarily on European context although the latter part of his life. He was who certainly becoming much more acquainted with and making more effort towards understanding the Chinese context and and the political philosophies are coming out of the People's Republic of China. And he was also very much involved with communist movements in Italy throughout his life and he was close to the Italian Communist party until it fell apart, but then continue with the refund that silicon when you start and then eventually became a member of the re-founded potato nice te the tagliabue we found it. It's a link Italian Communist party I think in 2016. Two years before he perished from a brain tumor took him away while he was writing extensively on the future of Communism and which is a book that is yet to be translated he was also very much a contributor to a critique of post-structuralist or post whatever works want some of these key contributions are there to sort of a critical | |||
3:15 PM | |||
Urkel Much more into hegel's influences on locks and Heidegger as well as really looking much more into hegel's influences on locks and Tangles and bringing forth it I suppose that what became a bit of a controversial understanding of Hegel and not sure whether we'll be able to get into that but but trying to get at some of the problems historical. Problems of Marxism but especially Western Marxism with respect to addressing dealing with some basics of ontological aspects array of of politics like some like the contradictions that politics are involved in so he was in the thick of that kind of discussion and trying to contribute and Standing of marches in there would be going away from the I'm trying to remember the how to translate this into English, but his worthy in was adding a bailout beautiful spirit. It's kind of understanding of politics in which people can absolve themselves by basically not being in the thick of the action and not taking power and responsibility that comes with that. So so there was part of his efforts, especially in the latter two decades of his work. Organization called aside from that he was the director of a Marxist organization called Max 21 would be the I guess the translation and he was also renowned for his work on damn she and interpretations of Graham Shand works and he was also a well known as part of one of the several but not a seesaw. He entered societies that there would be focused on Hagel. So he has spanned a great deal of different kinds of work. The breathwork is waiting impressive to say the least and most of his works as far as I understand. It not being translated into English yet, but that's something that perhaps we'll be able to discuss later. Yeah, absolutely. That's something that we're going to pick up on very shortly. So, thank you for that Salvatore the next topic of discussion and as I bring up this next topic of discussion, I also want to remind the listeners that if you have specific questions for us or we would like to follow up on something that is said you can do so in the Q&A box we have 23 minutes roughly for Q&A after the interview portion here. So make sure that you're putting those questions in there so that when we get to that time we can hop right in. | |||
The next topic is dominical to sort of thought. So again, if listeners to this program have not already read his work they may be a little bit confused about what sets Lacerta apart from other thinkers that you know, we understand that you wrote a book on Stalin but what specifically is this book on Stone we know that he has a book on Western Marxism. He has a book on liberalism, which I have next to me on the other side, but what is his thoughts specifically so I'm going to ask two questions and direct this to To chip it's Gabriel first, but other panelists also feel free to chip in as Gabriel finishes his answers. So what we're kind of the influences on lesser do thought who were some of the thinker's that influence the way that he analyzed things and then how did he synthesized these various strands of thought from various thinkers into his mode of analysis that then we can talk about after. Thank you Henry. So loose or do Drew widely on the tradition that runs from mercs and Engels through Lennon and up through contemporary both thinkers and activists within the Marxist and broader leninist tradition and within that tradition I think that one of his Central methodological contributions has been do position himself as a kind of counter historian who's working within the Imperial core. I think we all know that history is controlled by those who control the | |||
Over history operated by the control over history operated by the ruling class is in part an attempt to control the present and the future and to dictate to people the temporal coordinates of their existence where they came from what's going on now and what's on offer possibly within the future the sword o in being a counter story and push back very very strongly against that and I just like to highlight rather quickly some aspects of that. Counter Always situated class struggles in the plural and hopefully we'll come back to why it is that it's so essential that it's in the plurals because it doesn't simply mean the struggle between different classes in the economic sense, but it's also struggles between genders. It's a struggle over land. It's a struggle between races and Nations and many more things we can unpack later those class struggles are of course they demonstrate that nothing in history is natural. It's the product of those struggles. Secondly Lasorda always analyzes the social Totality right? So he's not simply doing a fragmentary history or focusing on a particular discipline or particular area is instead situating philosophic and cultural work in relationship to the socio economic base. And the transformation of that base over time. Thirdly one of his tactics, which I find particularly interesting and many people I think enjoy and less or do is he demonstrates the profound contradictions that rack whose wall history meaning that many of his histories draw explicitly on Was story ography needs to demonstrate that this was story ography needs to draw on a factual basis, but they're tasked with what historians that is with doing the impossible that is making factual reality look like it's not actual reality. And so the sort o will not only point out those contradictions but drawn Booth while historians in order to Marshall and argument that is ultimately obviously a Marxist or the next point that I have is that the social totality for Lasorda was always Of his analysis is drawing of course particularly on Lenin and others within that tradition. Is he centers the colonial question and he centers the Imperial question, so you cannot understand what's going on in the west if you don't understand what's going on with the rest. So to speak and in fact, it's not only understanding the point of view of those who have been colonized by Imperial capitalism, but really centering that as one of the principal driving mechanisms behind the heh Understands history is he understands history is a dialectical process of development and so any particular event in history needs to be situated in relationship to the general or Universal developments within history and recognizing that history is a process and I think this is absolutely essential and has for me been very informative in regards to my own worldview we have to understand that socialism itself is a process and it's a process that he describes a very specifically as a process of learning so socialism, there's no blueprint. It doesn't fall from the sky. It's human beings who make it but they make it by learning from their mistakes and evolving in the direction of Greater egalitarians. ISM sustainability and other things that are hope will be able to discuss on the rest of the call, but I'll turn it back to you. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that was a great summary I want to make sure that they open up the floor to Jennifer and Roderick now in case either of them would like to contribute to this topic before we move on to the next one Roderick. I know that you if for example have written on Twitter as well as else Is in terms of what Le Cerritos thought kind of is in terms of when we're thinking about lesueur do and we're thinking about what his thought means what kind of modes of analysis are he using you've done pretty good summaries on that. I know you've mentioned it on some several posts on red sails you've done it on Twitter X. Yeah, I can I can I was going to mention that towards the end, but I can I can bring it up right in right now. So so I like we're Gabriel said of Right every also mentioned that sort of takes from the Traditions with Marx Lenin angles. You know marches tradition, but I think for Le Sueur do it seems to me like one of the big guiding stars, of course Haven he doesn't only examine Hagel was an object if he's also like a discipline Havel and so Hagel, what does it mean to analyze something that fatality, right? I think this is best exemplified by his book liberalism. We're in his book liberalism. He Is if you are a cheerleader, yes that it's it's almost like his argument is if you are a cheerleader, yes that book liberalism. I come from history if you insist on defending the United States as the land of Freedom, you're obviously missing missing the picture right? Like there's slavery, you know genocide secularism Etc. However, if in in dieting the United States you also Eclipse completely the dimension that a lot of people just continuously proclaimed the United States the land of Freedom, right? Like why how is it possible like how is it possible that are the same time you have like the proclamation of this is the land of freedom and emancipation and of slavery right and we'll certainly refer to this as the Tangled Paradox off slavery in American liberalism and in a normal honest and as Gabriel point Doubt not only in America also in the rest of the world. So, yeah, so this this drive towards analyzing the totality means not leaving anything behind it is not sufficient to present your case. You kind of need to present your case, but also account for the case of your adversaries for your interlocutors or whenever you disagree with it is not sufficient to say this is my position it is important to also explain why somebody else might have the opposite position and then from that totality Drive your actual conclusion. So yeah, let's do that. Just I think that's about it. Terrific Salvatore. I'm going to turn this next question over to you, which is so we're talking about his mode of analysis now, but we haven't really talked about the topics of focus within his revoir. So I'm wondering if you can just take that perhaps in a semi brief way because listeners he has a huge bibliography particularly in Italian. It's rather Limited in English still, but we're working on it but a huge revoir, so I'm wondering Salvatore if you can just take it. | |||
3:26 PM | |||
Crack Memorizing some of the main topics of his focus and what is available in Italian before we then move on to what's available in English? All right, so that gave your embroidery if such a fantastic understanding of the Life Works that I'm basically going to just be listing maybe some of the topics which is not going to be an exhaustive list. But I mean, he studied by the way and Pasqual a solution who was a Senator communist possibility incidentally and so the his so just to say that lawsuit was not starting from scratch. I mean at the University level, you know already. He was developing his his methodology with with them quite a bit of infrastructure and in the University where he studied but but he went beyond that and developed a suppose one could say also Marxist or graphical method I think that cable was alluding or say stating this before and I just repeat it. You know, there is underpinned by Marxist dialectic in historical materialism and that included look at Politics in the history and philosophy and politics in France and Germany, especially the 19th century that was something that he's written about a critical evaluation of philosophers like Kant I did mention before me try and hide ago I mentioned earlier and Appraisal of the thought of lukacs and in fact that He's that some sort of was inching closer to the later or lukich in some of his writings at least from what I recall goes? He's written about lending's thought and I mean he identified as a marxist-leninist you mentioned before he wrote about G XI several Works actually and of course, there's the critiquing the very foundations of liberalism as already discussed by Gabriel got control. Drake which is one of the foundational contributions least in my view not just and I mean he wrote about liberalism in his variegated forms. It wasn't he wasn't just a painting liberalism as some sort of Monolithic entity by any means and also the varieties of Captain's politics liberalism represents, especially in the context of US History it was interested I don't think he really followed through as much in his works by was very interested in The history of Black Liberation struggles in the u.s. In particular and also Native American struggles, but also he took it took pains and to to evaluate as well in in a manner that's much more constructive then then almost any writer from Western Massachusetts in if you like, although he doesn't belong to that. | |||
Respect somebody broke with that entirely but he did provide writings about the USSR and the People's Republic of China from a non revisionist. I mean an explicitly non revisionist largest lenders perspective and this is part of the obvious thing contributions and I mean he was also writing and critiques of revisionism and of revisionist politics within Western Marx's and also debunking the concept of totalitarianism along Liberal narratives that and also kind of other kinds of liberal narratives that are basically anti-socialist anticommunist in character. He's was quite active in doing a lot of critique of that especially, you know with our end and those kinds of writers. And of course one of the works that we are I guess presenting about in some respects is is not just an overall critique of Western Mark. She's in there that will be forthcoming soon. Thanks to Gabriel Jennifer and others but but also also about the Legends surrounding the figure of styling and which also brought up. It was a very controversial book in Italy as well. Be controversial which hopefully by the end of this session will be self-evident that that control BC should not even exist. | |||
Yeah, excellent. So to move on before we talk about Western Marxism, we'll talk about Western Marxism in one moment. I just want to focus a little bit on what is available in English as of today because Western Marxism as Salvatore mentioned in this week been mentioned several times before is forthcoming and I know all of us are very much looking forward to it Gabriel in Jennifer so, you know, thank you for doing that work, but there are several works by Lesotho that are available in English. I know I've held up several of them. In front of the camera, I mean I can keep holding up new ones in front of the camera all the time, but there are several works of lesser do is available in English and I am aware that we are conversing in English and therefore everyone who is in the audience is going to be an English speaker either as a primary or secondary language and so you would be able to read these works. So I'm going to just open it up for discussion for everyone actually for just a moment to discuss what works are available in English we can talk about Books and we can talk about articles. I know Roderick you've done some translation of some articles of his on your website as well. So feel free to bring those up. Just maybe tease what the book is and kind of the central argument within it. I don't want to get too bogged down because I would like to highly recommend the listeners to check out the works themselves, but if we can bring up a few of the works that are available in English and what the central thrust of those arguments presented within those books and articles are that might be useful for the listeners. So whoever wants to go first. Feel free to hop right on it. | |||
I'm happy to start out if you like one of I think is most important books available in English is class struggle and class struggle really pushes back very hard against the myth of white male Marxism this idea that Marxism only has to do with white workers in the Imperial Court who are like industrial workers and it completely rejects the idea that Marxism is somehow a European Theory. That's not germane to struggles elsewhere in the world and it also rejects the very I'd spread assumption. I'll use the language of the non Marxist philosopher Nancy Frazier to juxtapose struggles for recognition against struggles for redistribution. What Lasorda demonstrates is a class struggles within this broader Marxist tradition that we've been talking about has always been understood in terms of a struggle both for recognition and for redistribution, so you cannot separate the kind of economic struggles from the ideological struggles if you will and at the same time that class struggle is a general genus Is very briefly in passing but he goes into how there's owners versus workers. How nature as a source of wealth is a site of class struggles how the struggle between nations in the Imperial Court and the nation's who have been colonized by them is absolutely Central to the evolution of capitalism and the the modern world and the struggle against domestic slavery as a form of class struggle class struggle is of course people like What was the struggle between man and woman. What was the first form of cholesterol historically for angles. So I couldn't recommend that book more strongly. | |||
I just like to recommend an essay of his that I find really useful and it's called his China turn to capitalism that was published in the International International critical thought and I think this is an excellent essay for really assessing the developments of the Chinese Revolution the continuities between Mao's and amount of thought and reform and opening-up and also it really lays out the kind of because pretty good. Populism on which I'm going to be talking about more a little bit later. So I'd highly recommend that as a | |||
So we've talked about the class struggle book and he's commentary on China. Well sort of has the books that I approached the pseudo for initially our you've held up liberalism and one revolution as well and I think and there's also non-violence so these are all very I would say explicitly they're very fun with politics and World politics and it's almost like an title. It's | |||
Surprising. Is that after kind of enjoying all these books I decided to look into the more philosophical ones, which is an area that I didn't have that much interest in primarily a high degree book The Hagel book and the Nietzsche book and initially I was like, well, I'm just going to read them because I'm a fan of you know, like I've enjoyed the other words. So let's check them out. I was actually very surprised that I think this was something I was gonna mention at the end, but I'm bringing up again a little bit further. It was very surprising. How much I got out of those books I think he's books on just the philosophical biographies of these thinkers and there's more writers Kant It hasn't been translated to English and grab she either they're super there off a kind. | |||
3:38 PM | |||
And also the very problematic ways in which within the communist movement some parts of the communist movement selling this V. | |||
I did and yeah, it's I would strongly recommend I think people should approach the more political or explicitly political works first, but if they like what they're seeing they should not be at all apprehensive about checking out the other philosophical books. They're much more accessible and much more pertinent. I've enjoyed the other words. So let's check them out. I was actually very surprised. I think this was such something I'm going to mention that the end but I'm bringing up again a little bit further. | |||
Got out of those books. I got out of those books, I think he's books on just the philosophical biography. So these thinkers and there's more right there's content. It has to be translated to English and grab she either they're super are there of a kind with the other ones? It's surprising. It's surprising that from a book on reach a I understood so much about the 19th century, but I I did and yeah. More political or explicitly political works first, but do they like what they're seeing they should not be at all apprehensive about checking out the other philosophical books. They're much more accessible and much more pertinent than than it seems at first sight. | |||
Salvatore I'll let you answer, however you want but we haven't talked about what the Stalin book is yet when I know that that was one of the impetus he's for this this event. I know that if people are not familiar with what the book is they might be thinking. Maybe it's a biography Maybe it's you know a history of the Stalin time and government. It's neither of those things listeners, but I'm sure that you'd rather hear from Salvatore then me so I'll turn it over to Salvatore you can talk about that and then anything else in English by the sort of that you would like to Thank you everybody. I'm sure how you could describe it even better than I can but I mean as a title suggests and this is something that perhaps Bears repeating over and over again. It's about the history of as literally of a legend around the figure of Stalin. It's not really about Stalin per se in fact, so it's very far from a biography but it's it's much more looking critically and through | |||
The varied over time is looking at how how the figure of selling featured in different ways according to different political formations. So it's something that again what I was alluding to earlier it should not be very controversial. I mean he's tracing basically according to very mainstream writers how How the image of Stalin was constructed and in a contradictory fashion of before during and after World War Two And basically, I mean to put it I guess bluntly the showing of the same words are of the people who are anti-communist how silly their arguments are it in so many ways and also the very chromatic ways in which And within the Buddhist movement some parts of the communist movement styling has been constructed in a very simplified fashion in such a way that it's rather unhelpful politically. So that's really just to very to be very brief about it. If people are interested in knowing more about the styling himself. That's that wouldn't be the book to read. However Ruby To contrast those biographies with with the very meticulous work that those who have the offers in the book with respect to the constructs about styling because often times about graffiti is of styling are initiated by rather a historical understandings of that figure and also stereotypes that are there are basing on no empirical evidence. So those those are So I guess maybe I could I would like to add to that. I'm not sure what else could be said about it. It's a little does work is is much broader and then you know having a critical evaluation of the way in which Stalin has been made to Be Imagined especially in the core capitalist countries like this one like where I'm sitting in the US and that so You can also a good compliment. That book is the liberalism account of History because it really is a good complement to to that and enables one to understand it in more clearly. What's at stake with different ways in which styling is is is constructed in different decades. So, I'm sorry I just leave it there, you know that we could talk longer about the book but I wouldn't want to take too much. Each time about that g necessary. Yeah. Thanks, Salvatore and I have done many interviews about the styling book already. So instead of us talking too long about that book in particular. We'll just direct the listeners, you know, just Google Stalin history and critique of a black Legend you'll find many interviews that we've done about it already and more coming out even this week. I believe on it. So just keep your eyes peeled for that, but I do want to thank Salvatore for bringing up the liberalism book at the same time as the Stalin book reason being is that as I just Critical media narrative analysis. It's not a critical media narrative analysis. It's not a biography. It's looking at the construction of a narrative and how the narrative can be changed over time to what ends the narrative changes the project that the narrative changes are fueling and what is fueling that an impetus for changing those narratives and the liberalism book does is very much the same thing but instead of looking at The Narrative of an individual it looks at The Narrative of a political economic current and so we hear all of Of these histories of liberalism how liberalism has been built over years and how you know, the philosophical basis on which liberalism stands and how through iterations we become more and more, you know mature in the liberalism that we're experiencing in the world. What was sort of does he really unpacked that in shows that counter history Jose? What liberalism is built upon what liberalism does constitute and as Broderick mentioned earlier that constitutes set Constitutes slavery. It constitutes slavery. It constitutes oppression. It constitutes wage slavery all of these things are constituted in this part of that narrative analysis. So I'm happy that celebratory. You mentioned the Stalin book in the liberalism book side-by-side because while the topics are very different I think that that's not all the liberalism does but that narrative analysis is something that you see present very firmly in both of those books and it's important to take those two books Side for that reason. Tanya is not Yes, I do think it's important to emphasize though that one thing for me I read a bunch of books. But what makes us so special is that he insists to see also he gives plenty of time for liberals for make their own case. Okay when you touch we need talks about Stalin you really get to understand not only why some people love styling but also I some people hated Stalin and not only in the sense of Weaving a narrative but in send in the sense of like these are the genuine feelings of two sides of a struggle and in the case of liberalism he makes very sure that this reader you come off not only understanding the counter history, which is the meat of the book which is like be you know a critique, but you also see emphasizes the feeling of Freedom that is experienced by the Liberals at the top of the settler Colonial project America is Spelled by themselves at the exclusion of what they're doing as a freedom unprecedented, right? So you come away not only understand the counter history. But also the the history right like the textbook history is also very very accounted for it's not only Secret Story. It's both stories melded together. And I think that's guys, I think that makes me very very special at least in my experience. Absolutely. I think that that's a critical thing in just from the perspective. Of the Stalin book as I was along with Salvatore one of the translators of the work going through it was Easy because there's over 1,000 in-text citations and if you look at the references that I remember the count correctly. It's 346 references in the back of the book and if you count them the vast majority are anti-communists and anti-stalinist anti Stalin thinkers anti Stalin journalists anti stolen politicians Etc. He allows them to make their case in their own words and then shows what that case is, really rooted in so Roger I think that that was Is a very important point I do want to turn to an upcoming book though, which we've mentioned throughout I Salvatore I see that you have your hand raised but will hold it for just a second because for time timely as sake I want to turn over to Western Marxism for a moment because as we've mentioned throughout this conversation, Jennifer and Gabriel are undertaking this project of translating Western Marxism into English and it will be available next year from monthly review press and we're all incredibly excited for it. So Jennifer, why don't they turn it over to you first. Can you talk about Western Marxism in the fundamental argument within that book just as a teaser for The Listener so that they know what they're going to be able to get next year when it comes out. Yes. Well, thank you. So the book is coming out I Gabriel edited it. It's this translation was done by Stephen Colbert tryla and in addition to including a long introduction by Gabriel and myself the book also includes the first English translation. Important lecture those sort of presented on this topic of Western Marxism in 2007. So the book basically lose sedates one of the major splits in global Marxist debates between what we sort of and others refer to as Eastern and western Marxism and it's a rejoinder to carry Anderson's trotskyist assessment of disciplined. So rather than referring to geography Eastern and western Marxism referred to two different political orientations, which have manifested themselves across the globe Eastern Marxism refers to those who have already identified with so In cool of you as in cool of USSR Vietnam Korea So Far Western Marxist by contrast describe that describes intellectuals who reject these real-world efforts to construct socialism in favor of intellectual practice essentially some even present their distance from power as a kind of epistemological advantage to discover some kind of moral integrity versus so Gus. Well Eastern Marxism is dedicated to the difficult and drawn-out process of building so | |||
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Ursula These do not live up to these intellectuals imagine standards of intellectual or helical Purity. So the soil is critique, really focuses on philosophical currents coming out of the funk for school and French Theory as well as other fingers that are proximate to these Traditions like my heart or my rotor Aunty Hannah Arendt instar Bushi check. I mean, it's important to know that this is he's not offering a kind of ad hominem attack that goes after these thinkers for their individual ideas. As in all of his work, he was cerdo elucidates the objective social forces that have produced Western Marxism as a remarkably consistent ideology and imperialist countries as well as among class strata in the periphery that aspire to kind of the rewards of Empire, right? So to elucidate the material basis of Western Marxism Lacerta is really drawing a lot on the line ends lapidary indictment of chauvinism in the Socialist movement Within imperialists. Critiques of Lenin's really Syrian critiques of revision and revisionism. Which means you know refers to the gutting of Marxism revolutionary core really Center on a condemnation of the social chauvinism that played members of the European members of the section s International and what's important is Lenin identifies the material basis of the chauvinism and he argues that the imperialist extraction of monopolist super profits from peripheral societies basically created a labor. Working-class resulting in their language Ramat meaning their identification with the interests of their own National visualize. He's over in against their fellow proletarians and other countries. So likewise looser do is really demonstrating how many Western Marx's chauvinism, you know is similarly based in a political economy of imperialism and that it is any shows how he expresses itself in paternalistic attitudes towards the efforts of workers and peasants in the peripheries to struggle against imperialism the identifies. I just want to talk about some of the main features that he dint identifies across the various thinkers who he examines. You know one is the very classic idea that this kind of chauvinism is so embedded that Western Marxist you can you know dismiss socialism. I mean a real socialism around the world without even actually studying any of these movements in any serious manner there's also sort of also identifies populism, which I mentioned earlier as a really key feature of Western Marxism and this is something I really important critique that he did with, you know elaborates and his work that he's | |||
Also drawing on Blends critiques of a populism and this is basically a kind of disposition that wants to celebrate the moral Excellence of those who are oppressed or oppressed and bereft of power without actually scientifically identifying the material forces that cause that impression or a way to struggle against it. And so it's the kind of this type of populism often leads intellectuals to side with the oppressed only as long as they are losing not if they actually Age to have successfully gang state power and this is something that you will sort of really he critiques and shows the kind of irony of this that basically any idea. He relates this to kind of hegel's criticism of a disposition and Christians who in order to you know, accomplish their obligation to serve the poor actually need poverty to and persist indefinitely. So this kind of populism that looks or do identifies he sees it. Among intellectuals, who are opposed to political parties, who are opposed to the exercise of state power because these ideas about getting with under the idea that or getting organized through the party form might some inexorably lead to new forms of Oppression that would besmirch the moral Excellence the downtrodden and this is another reason why Rebellion ism is another light Motif that he identifies and this is a kind of tendency friend. Own sake without close to sort of celebrate Insurgency and Revolt for their own sake without close attention to the content context or concrete political content of that that Rebellion is MM and so you see Western marks is just kind of exalt the sort of figure in Revolt in Revolt, which is often a kind of production of their own self-image and this is something that you will sort of drawers and really important critiques. Excuse me important insights from ISM can And itself to very distinct political projects and as we know you're the deep and expansive history of dissident politics should have clearly demonstrated to us that this point that this is the case since we know that the u.s. State often, you know promotes right wing and even Philip fascist dissident projects and finally I wanted to know that he either didn't see that, you know, it was sort of than identifies is this kind of utopia ISM and a kind of trafficking in magical thinking whenever if there is any concern with a proposing an alternative to the extant order on one of the things I find really useful is the sort of shows how this kind of messing ISM reflects the influence of judeo Christian ideologies on many Western marxists and do this commencing isn't takes a lot of different forms it basically expresses itself in a kind of tendency to project a vision of a socialist future a future that is completely other than want to totally Exist as if it didn't have to actually be created out of what exists right and this idea this future that is projected as completely other therefore cannot somehow be arrived at through the telluric pack path and extant institutions including the role of Love Parliament parties States. And so forth It's supposed to somehow arrive more or less miraculously. So and I just want to say, you know a lot of what did I was sort of diagnosis is really applies to a lot of Not beat not a language school as I mentioned and I'm thinking D Colonial period post-colonial Theory ever pessimism the ball during studies. And so forth and finally, I just want to note that you know more than a critique. This book is also really a call to intellectuals to develop the rich tradition of critical communism. You know, which is which means learning from the Practical lessons of the global history of class struggle rather than Of ideas or purported theoretical blueprints. Terrific. Thanks for that overview, Jennifer Gabriel. I hate to do this to you, but I can only give you two minutes to add anything that you would like to on Western Marxism Jennifer covered. Absolutely everything. So let's keep moving on terrific appreciate that for the sake of time and Jennifer again. I really appreciate that overview. It was tremendous. So I want to move on I guess before I move on I'll just mention that there are a lot of other Lasorda works that are available in town. In which are not available in English yet that hopefully will change soon. I know Salvatore and I are trying to get the rights to some more of the Cerritos Works to also translate the our publisher iskra, Salvatore and I have another book that's coming out at this for next year, but it's not with sword also, we'll talk about it later, but there are other works that can be translated so listeners what what something I would recommend you to do is contact some Publishers and recommend them to look at translating a lesser do as well because there is a huge catalogue of his Works, which some of your favorite Publishers should absolutely be looking at but until they do we will continue to do that ourselves. So moving on I want to talk a little bit about the relevance of lesueur do outside of Academia because I understand and the listeners will probably see Jennifer Salvatore and Gabriel. You're all academics Roger. Can I are not But most of this conversation has been are carry academic and focus it has been talking about how loose Erdos thought furthers various academic disciplines in various academic Fields, but of course we cannot confine our thought to the academy the point is to take that thought that is in some cases developed within the academy but then take it out of the academy and apply it into the real world and that's going to be the focus of our next topic which is the relevance of Lesotho outside of the academy. Me I am going to stick with her academics to begin with though. So Gabriel Jennifer Salvatore. I'll start with Gabriel. How can scholar activists make use of lucero's work outside of that academic context? | |||
Well, the sort of and I think the same goes for the three quote unquote academics if you just listed on the call was a lifelong activists and so did not accept the Ivory Tower notion that Booth while ideology imposes on all of us meaning that you know where ever you make your work is where you live and that's it and in that regard the sort of Zone intellectual work, I think made an enormous contribution to providing what I would refer to as a kind of cartography of global class struggle. In a war because there is an international class struggle going on then you need. People doing different tasks and one very important one is mapping the very nature of that struggle and I'll just point to one conceptual intervention, I think is very important that the sort of made and speaks volumes to the nature of the struggle that's currently going on and also Echoes some of Anita's very important points that she made and the opening of the call concerning the settler Colonial project that's ongoing in Gaza and that is that loose or do diagnose the history of totalitarianism as a concept and he demonstrated that it was originally Developed by Communists to describe life under capitalism because under capitalism you depend for your means of survival on a whole series of relationships that basically have to do with the wage relation as the the means of survival in that regard the ideological conception of totalitarianism. That was developed later by people like Hannah Arendt and members of The National Security State and United States is the recuperation of the Communist understanding of totalitarianism, but it tries to do the impossible. | |||
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And that is Communism or somehow the same the sort of theorize this in terms of a distinction between naturalistic D specification. The specification is the process by which a particular group or body politic D specifies other groups meaning it rejects them and excludes them from the group naturalist. | |||
Sorry, my mute just went on we're good. So naturalistic D specification is a process by which certain groups are excluded from the community based on quote unquote natural properties, right these properties can be ethnic. They can be racial. They can be gender. They can be religious Etc. This is the kind of core and essence of the history of racializing processes and it is integral to the history of fascism and we see it operative today in the way in which Each the Palestinians are referred to as human animals who must be eliminated by many members of the Israeli government against that he juxtaposes what he calls moral political these specification and that is the form of D specification operative in the history of the communist movement when in moments of Crisis certain members of the community either need to be excluded or band in various ways the reason for doing that is not because of a natural attribute that they purportedly have. It's | |||
Is it their political and moral decisions, right? So when Stalin was Waging War against the Nazi war machine he was very clear that it was a war not against the German people. We don't hate them as if people are not going to destroy them as a people. It's a war against the capitalist ruling class and the way in which they've used fascism in Germany as a weapon of war against the global socialist movement. So I'll leave it at that. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm going to turn it over to Salvatore and then Jennifer intern feel free to go right after. After each other but do try to keep it brief. I know that that is very difficult, but we are running a bit short on time at this point just like then I would stress the the parts. I guess we'll have to build off of Gabriel really it's the ideological struggle loss or do is I think if you read some of these some of the works that we've mentioned including the work on the image of Stalin and County History liberalism for example, it's a school you can learn from it in terms of how to take apart a whole bunch of narratives in their own terms and turned them against themselves. So I think that's that's very useful as possible the ideological struggle that also has to be parallel with the struggles of the streets and everywhere else so I leave it at that. | |||
I don't need to add anything else on this question. I know we're short on time. Okay, I appreciate that. And I also you know Echo everyone that has talked so far. I do want to turn it over to Roderick though because Roger you and I are the two on the panel that are outside of Academia. So what can readers that are I'll try to keep it very brief. I've already talked most of the points that I had brought up. Okay, so let's go do in his polemic with Jacques Vallee trotsky's from Friends hee hee hee highlights two parts of his analysis that I think of. A important. Okay. What is the use of a serial for like a regular working slack like a regular person or even an active just a regular person? I think the content of the book is very important, but I think very important also is the way he he argues differently as I've highlighted many times two things that will sort of highlighted one of this is use of comparative Statics compared to stick to something that we would today call. What about many people would accuse of what about is you're trying to understand China you say? Oh they whatever people Over the United States has prisons to where people are like, oh, that's what about Chism. This is a way in which people are more or less disciplined into not being able to approach a topic. It's like a little bit like being told because out of your pay grade like you should just stay out of it. You don't ask too many questions. | |||
Are you looking focuses on it? He defends comparative Statics and I think he defends the right of people to explore a topic by asking. What about ISM type questions and the other think he rejects is and he indicts not only anti-stalinist but also also styled himself or engaging in The Narrative of betrayal the reason we're trying to understand something you're trying to understand not in this context. It's like you know, the Stalin period of the USSR and Everyone is accusing each other of being a backstabbing. It's a cross key back. | |||
Then Stalin is solid backstop Trotsky and working class was backstabbed then push it came and backstab people and China came and they were backstabbing and the and so this is all just like backstabbing and backstabbing your backstabbing. I'll sure do says this is not you're not gonna get anywhere like this you need to actually analyze the objective contradictions that led to this outcomes. And why do people are launching these accusations and try to give you credit. Thank you trustee the credit for having trying to do his best and and Stanley was also trying to do His best but even though they were both trying to do his best there were still problems. Just trying it's not you know, right and so in doing this was to do in teaching people. Hey you should do more. What about ISM and you should not do weak nerves to Trail the service teaching people to think better and I think this is a this is something that he takes from Hegel Hegel wanted to do popular philosophy people laugh about it because so considered impenetrable these days but he was trying to popular philosophy and Lenin was also like me to teach people to think that Philosophy is a useful tool for the working class and G. She of course great educator and all these are marks on angles as well. So all these are huge influence in the studio and I think the studio really not only is trying to teach the content of these books, but he's also trying to be a role model for people. How you can think how you can think about these questions and I'll get trapped in like a dead end in a ditch just not being able to ask me more questions or becoming a becoming a very eccentric person can have no longer talk to liberals because I think very different than you do. Sure could do that. We should have a double rollerball understand so they think so, I think yeah in doing this I think will sooner basically teaches teaches philosophy to any reader correctly impertinently and I think it's useful even if you're not an academic it's just useful to approach the world. Terrific we have one question left and I have enough time built in for one minute for each of you. So just like a presidential debate you get closing statement and it'll be the same statement for everyone and I'm just going to read off the list of people in order that I see them to answer this question. So Jennifer, Salvatore Roderick Gabriel the question is what is looser do mean to you. I just said before I think it goes I think he's a okay. Great Jennifer you're up. I just wanted to say one of the things that I really am help me is understand the importance of development and as key to the struggle against Neo colonialism and I think that he you know, really clarifies that the struggle for sovereignty of God for people who have historically been subject to colonialism and Imperial Stout pretty | |||
That goes is necessarily tied to the struggle for development and that goes is profoundly under appreciated by people in the you know, overdeveloped imperialist core. And so you know, he really gives us this question for the Western life that asks, you know are the unfulfilled Promises of the anti-colonial Revolution a sufficient reason to align ourselves with the neo-colonial counter-revolution and he emphasizes that that's the question that really face Us in the bus. So for me, how about among other things this will do is is a model of what to do in terms of intellectuals of any sort intervening in politics and in discussions every day discussions as well in terms of unjust understanding ones role and the saying that context in which one is speaking on his writing and how important that is to that one can Help avoid or at least contribute to avoiding the kinds of construction of ideas that actually run counter to any any sort of socialist revolutionary potential if you will that that is what I one of the one of the major things that I get from Reading those who those and really understanding ones historical context and acting accordingly and with and and in response. | |||
What? Gabriel I think that was sort of gives us a nuanced understanding of the dialectics of socialism in a sense that socialism is very difficult project of development particularly because of the imperialist siege that has been imposed upon socialism and that he presents us and this here. I'll Echo Jennifer with a very Stark choice and that is do we want to be on the side of the difficult project and the process of learning that's referred to as socialism. Mmm, or do we want to be on the side of the those who accommodate capitalism? | |||
As see soon as they see how difficult it is for socialism to develop in the real world as opposed to and the Ethereal mind of those who presume to know. Yeah, I would like to Echo everyone and just adding briefly on behalf of myself that looser do is a really great example of someone who is absolutely uncompromising in their analysis is willing to delve into the topics that generate controversy is willing to go out and be an activist on top of doing that scholarship on controversial topics and to not back down when being challenged by unprincipled critiques, which we have seen many of Of Lesotho and he has been public in debates with individuals who have taken in some cases scholarly debate against him and in some cases outright slander against him and has shown that know it is an ideological disagreement and we are uncompromising in our ideological standing in our ideological position. This is really inspiring to me to see that you can have somebody who is a renowned philosopher. I know our friend Emmanuel mess calls him the greatest. | |||
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21st century. I think that that's in many cases true, but we see that despite being this, you know, highly revered figure in many circles. He is still willing to get into those controversial topics that he knows are going to get mud thrown on his name and in some cases at him personally and still do it in an uncompromising and principled Way full of scholarly rigor and full of activists fervor. So on that note then Then we're going to close out this interview portion. I'd like to thank the panelists for answering the questions that I had posed. But now we're going to open up the listener Q&A portion of this discussion. Like I said earlier if you have a question that you would like to ask to the panelists today you can type it into the Q&A which is on the side of your screen right now we do have some very good questions already and so what I will do is I will read some of them and have my panelists take them we have quite a few. Whew, so panelists. I am going to ask you to try to be brief and answering some of these excellent and questions because we do have only about 22 minutes before we have to close out. So the first question that we have is from Nia who asks a very good question and I see Roderick smiling because we both know who Mia is this is a very good question and it's almost the inverse of the question that we closed up with which is which do what do each of you disagree with lesser do about So I can discuss it with me I before any like I'm I really like sir do so. It's often like well, what do you not like about him? I finally had to say not like because I think even agreement or a sensible disagreement I am pretty enjoy the but anyway the show do very much defense nationalism. I think he has nationalism was a real actual historical Force. I as a person do not have Strong National links to Any Nation. I'm not an American. I live in Canada my family hails from Europe for me fully agree with Wilshire do about the absolute Primacy of nationalism in the struggle for Liberation leaves me a little bit a drift because I don't know exactly does that mean that I can't really contribute or is it mean that my contribution will always have to be auxiliary. I haven't fully resolved. What is my relationship to that pieces of those? I think It's a strong thesis. I think he backs it very well. He says that no revolutionary all revolutionary movements have been led by coming over like many successful revolutionary movements have been led by communists. | |||
But no revolutionary movement has been successful without drowning himself in National soil write something like that. And so the question of nationalism with key defensive very well and I don't really know what my relationship to it is. It's not necessarily a disagreement. It's just like a it's an open question. Where do I stand in relationship to that pieces? Yeah, so I apologize in person, so to speak. So yeah, that's that's for me the question that I grappled with. | |||
Perhaps I can say something to that for me to be even able to disagree with your swords are would necessitate a much greater depth of understanding of Hagel for example in the other kinds of philosophers. And so for me, it's difficult to find disagreement because I don't feel like I have the instruments to necessarily disagree, but I am perplexed about his reading of Of Hegel in a particular way like in terms of thinking that the reason idealistic or historical idealism current within Marxism from the outset and you know that may be true but I need to investigate that further and I have not read all of those with this book. So it's not you might not be a disagreement in might be something that I just need to explore. There | |||
Gabriel Jennifer either of you want to chime in or should we move to the next question and God was moving to the next gen. Yeah, I'm finally moving on. Okay great. I'm going to move to the question that is posed by Bradley another excellent question. And again listeners you can ask questions in the Q&A section Bradley asks, especially what flight you've shared about Lasorda was background the grampian notion of Common Sense comes to mind as an ongoing challenge How would you approach a discussion and encouraging someone? With the hegemonic narrative bushwa historiography at hand to give | |||
Kind of book a chance and I believe by this book. They're referring to the Stalin book, but it also could be with reference to Western Marxism. Absolutely. | |||
I could say go ahead erotic you should go I've already went before I can have two years ago. I'll be I'll be quick I think the pseudo and his book on Graham. She's excellent in that regard really does drawn the distinction that gramsci mix between common sense and good sense and the ways in which Common Sense often does have certain truths kind of encased within it but they tend to contradict other truths and so part of the process of cultivating what gramsci calls good sense is subjecting what you've learned from Common Sense meaning the Things that you've inherited the World Views you've inherited two critical analysis self-reflection the scientific method and so one of the strengths of Lasorda's kind of pedagogical undertaking is that he often begins with kind of debates where they're at and then moves people slowly through them and so even someone who would be hostile to Communism or Socialism or Marxism analysis could very well read just about any one of his books because he provides so much data that is | |||
Actually from the common sense Cannon being in the Canon of Boudoir history of what thinkers Etc and he walks you through them and shows what is coherent. What is not coherent and I think therefore makes very compelling arguments and is not necessarily just preaching to the pub Choir by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, I basically was going to say something very similar, which is that will sure though he's speaking from within the hegemony are in a little bit like as as was pointed out by you Henry, I think like the amount of citations he draws from standard sources. He's citing Silence about Montefiore. He's citing Robert service. He's citing like familiar names. He's not citing some obscure, but he's not only psychomotor. In fact, he rarely side followed him. He will cite them. So these this means that the shooter is Is trying to reach the reader were there at most likely they are not trying to come in as a huge like with completely know it's like agree with me and also trust me with all my own private sources that you know her before he is building off of what he's already there. I think in general that's the that's the that's the strength of those rules work. It's he's reaching people where they're at and to add black one. I understood the question also asking what a person today possibly. | |||
Pages of learning on styling Like what's the point? That was a long time ago? I think those sort of makes the point in the book and I think someone's read the book should be able to kind of sell the the idea or the argument that Stout and Trust Karen just people that exist on Once Upon a Time they represented Tendencies like he talks about Trotsky is representing the tradition of charismatic power and as Stalin as representing the tradition of legal legal. The name is escaping the legal Authority right like trucks Q represents Charisma style represents kind of like starchiness, you know way. Okay and even if Josh can Stalin or gone Those those Tendencies to latch onto Charisma and to latch onto tradition or still here with us. So if you understand the conflict well then if you feel like these conflicts are still relevant this old dispute between you know of the sound era still very relevant today and I think some of you yeah, that's making the book relevant to people today is one way in which you can tell people. Yeah this is this is worth your time even though it seems okay. Generally just very briefly if this time just to Grant it in at least the book on the image of style just to follow through for what Gabriel and not everybody said, you know, just pointing out perhaps sometimes what is common sense in the 1940s that Stalin was Time person of the year and then shortly thereafter selling is equated to Hitler should already create a little bit of this juncture in the minds of many people. Just maybe doing that and let's sort of course goes into much greater detail on that but I think that's that's part of the work that needs to be done only shows the way forward. I'm going to ask the next question. Unless Jennifer you have something that you want to add here. Okay next question, but before I do I just want to mention since Roderick brought up citing Molotov versus citing month of your I just look through the the Stalin book very quickly. There's a grand total of zero citations of Molotov in it and he cites Montefiore and no less than seven different points throughout the book. So you know that just speaks to what Roderick was saying and as a kind of a Funny sight the next question, I think I'm going to direct it towards you first, Salvatore. As I know this is something that you have talked with me a little bit about its question from hakan, which was what was looser do stance on the | |||
I maintain contacts with the new pc I maintain contacts with the CPC and I know Roger keep also written things on Lasorda when China on red sails as well. So the two of you are probably who I'm gonna send this over to First. Remember who holy know much more than I I suspect. I mean Jennifer already pointed out the article in the international critical thought that actually well represents how not short of them was what direction we saw there was moving politically. I'm not I'm not sure. I think he went to the People's Republic of China at some point and I think he even met with Ronald boa was an excellent scholar. Our on politics and philosophy has been there Gummy's party of China and beyond that so he was already making moves like a couple of decades possibly like about the late nineties about can't recall, but at the stance on the People's Republic of China was generally an understanding stance and not one that was prone to weekend rough judgments, but trying to | |||
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Republic of China That's sort of my understanding of it and and really actually spelling out how critiques of the People's Republic of China which really predicts of the Communist Party of China ill-founded for the most part and in fact again going back to work gadreel, Jennifer and Roger have already stated so demonstrate this kind of this tendency of those who who refused to take any responsibility. Whenever you have a revolutionary movement, you know compared to those who actually are in the Revolutionary Buddha are actually accomplishing things which is to say the Communist Party of China have been accomplishing a great many things and and this I think that's that's what you would stand about the People's Republic of China. Did he with the new Congress part of Italy he became part of it he joined in 2016. I'm not sure how much detail like I should go into that. I think we should move on because we're very short on time. Do you have to add to that very briefly if you have something else? Oh Jennifer I know that you've cited that article earlier, so you might have something here as well. But let's let's yes add to it but try to be brief that very very briefly. I linked the domain goes China and insight to the state of our state education and CPC by Rolling for he's written about this our own border also the occasion of the sort of passing route than I can't find a link to It. He wrote a nice little Memoir kind of love him traveling by train with the pseudo in China. I'll show those pills which I know very positive like he defends China's socialist project in an interview with what example today in Brazil. I can find a link but he actually goes really far out. He calls dense helping one of the greatest communist leaders of the 20th century and he says that he eats it's not fair to only judge the leaders by the winning. Her power like the struggle for power in the revolution, but you also have to give credit to the leaders that are mostly successful in construction the part Revolution is at least a two sided process, you know, we need power. Yes, but also constructing a new regime I think he gives a lot of credit to Denzel pain and so it's very positive and things helping the really was very positive and optimistic over China he thought of course if something were making trade-offs that we all understand the trade-offs is not like a kind of say, ah, he he never Like the he's at the socialism is is a difficult learning construction process. So yeah, very positive and China and I really recommend those were curious to check out the article the Jennifer recommended but also the the Memoir that bore wrote is very very sweet and I really like | |||
Jenna | |||
Go on to the next cake great. So there's a couple of really big questions and I am trying to figure out what ones will have time for because that's always the you know, the threat that the end but since we did mention Heidegger a few points during this this interview, perhaps we can be briefed on this answer I think that it will be possible here Amir asks what we're Lasorda's of you on Martin Heidegger. Did he consider him an important philosopher and defend his Nazi past? I think we can be brief with that. But whoever wants to take it. Go ahead. | |||
I can take it but I'm Lily psychedelic here. So you can else to go probably there's nothing wrong with being a non-academic Rogers the shooter was assured of defended. Okay, well soon as a tactic that he uses for Nietzsche and hiding her book and he Compares him as like peas in a pod little bit he thinks that a lot of people in defending higher and Nietzsche as not that reactionary they actually downplay their intellectual contributions. So we'll show you is politically completely opposed to me. Each a higher but as an intellectual he thinks that they were making like they were mounting a strong defense for reaction. And so for instance when Heidegger's black books came out which were like a scandal like, oh turns out Heidegger really wasn't at Sea he was really really antsy. He's not like oh an important is mmm. Accident know having it was committed to the project. It's the black books came out and the load of Defenders of hiding your had to kind of like recommend them and also wrote a piece for the guardian called the black team Turin surprising like if you were paying attention if you were taking Heidegger, seriously, listen Tinker with this like anti modernism and he's like destruction of like opposition to reason and stuff like that you would understand it. Yeah, there was a real kinship there between him and the Nazis and and this should be yeah he was he was a philosophical Champion for the Nazis for A reason so he's at the same time. I would say damning him politically as like | |||
Of a bad project but he's rescuing him intellectually as like talented philosopher. So that's how I understand the book on Heidegger is hard to come by it was translated by John and Marilla Maurice, but it's fantastic. I really recommend it if you are all curious about most on a tiger Any other brief comments on this or shall we move on? Okay this is from RE going back to the points on populism. Can you talk about lucero's position that Marxism itself does not lie in eyes poverty, but many of the movements that have seized power in the name of Marxism have done. So can you talk about the key differences between this View and a more populist to you now this is a very interesting question and could be a very big one. But again we are running short on time. So try to paint a grand event. So this is something that he addresses really directly in that article that I mentioned where and he's just to give you he quotes for example, dang and saying that Unless you are developing a productive forces and raising people's living standards you cannot say You're Building socialism. So he really, you know critiques that kind of idea that socialism would be about with the equal distribution of poverty and he really argues for the importance of developing productive forces and this kind of goes at and again just to go back to what I talked about earlier that this is both necessary to meet the needs of people who have The subject to imperialism dependency and uneven in unequal development, but also that this struggle for developing the productive forces is really necessary to avoid the imperialist subordination, you know, and becoming once again that you know semi-colonial or you know, neo-colonial subordinate to Imperial powers. | |||
Okay, I'll move on to the next question that another very useful question for people who are reading lisaura do and are looking for something similar what communist historians that write in English or at least have translations in English. I would have worked comparable to Lesotho. Did he ever recommend any this is from Tony? | |||
Few quick ones that come to mind Walter Rodney Ludo Martin's Michael parenti, of course, I'm sure there are others that I'm forgetting but that's a quick, you know, they're definitely in the same Zone and way of thinking I'm sure others will have other idea Gerald Horne absolutely read all of his works. He cited in Lesotho as well. I will add. | |||
Yeah, I would say all these thinkers again. You should mention want to Rodney Michael parenti Gerald Horne. Well, do you mention I endorse all these are all great. I would say that none of them are quite the closer during the philosophical twist to the whole thing, but they are maybe Rodney comes closest lady. I don't know but but yeah there are a lot like we could even depart a little bit further out for example, Nia like co-editor at red sails has written a very nice piece called blood sugar. It's William. Robert is a very different kind of thinker. He's an angle analytical basis and stuff like that, but he he's an out. I don't know if there's a list some points of similarity with the unclear Roberts and lesser. Do we tend to think there's some interesting similarities there. I also really like a thinker and from China that it's there's been an effort to try to make him controversial in the west because he translated she made for the Chinese context, but Jen she going Jim Siegel also has these like sprawling historical narrative he The roots tries to really get to the roots like why was Europe so kind of like exploratory? Why wouldn't your touched Africa you'd like to colonization whereas when China went to Africa he bled to trade for whatever he's up for. It's a Chinese perspective, but nothing wrong with that and he's also very materialistic thinking, isn't funny actions. So yeah, I would have I would have really clear Roberts and Jesse don't do this. | |||
Jen All right, then. I'm going to I'm going to kind of combine two questions here. It's going to be the last thing that we have time for. We've got one or two minutes left. So again brief is the operative word here so Ian asked about the Stalin book and why its controversial I think that that can be extended to looser do more generally and then also one of the other questions I had which I will try to find here was asking about why are some of these things that list? Do was analyzing relevant today still? Like why is looking at Stalin relevant today or Y is looking at the trotskyist, you know critique of Stalin relevant today when Stalin and Trotsky are both long dead, so these two these two questions about why there is this controversy around the cir do around this book particular, but more generally as well and why are some of these topics that was Certo is talking about which may be divorced quite some time temporarily from today. Why are they still relevant to today's questions and Today's struggles I can just jump in I think on the relevance question, you know the sort of really one of the things that I appreciate so much about his work is his attention to imperialism as a central contradiction of class struggle and and really also historicize he really historicize our contemporary moment as one in the kind of you know, onslaught of neocolonialism. Generally U s---led. Neocolonialism u.s. Let imperialism that is absolutely relevant to everything that is going on and you know, just as | |||
4:34 PM | |||
Me The barbarity of imperialism around the world including in Palestine. And so I think Melissa Rose perspectives absolutely essential for understanding. A | |||
Come perhaps you'd like Italy that work in particular of sounding was controversial but only because there are some segments of the left at like to continue with this Trope of using styling to batter, you know another part of the left. I think that's a large to a and what goes on about this and it's just sometimes just need your every action has very little to do with the content of the book which is really sad and it's very very that show in the way that sometimes that book had been revealed. Don't know about in the US, but it seems that it's going to be similar just you mentioned stallion immediately, you know you get this knee-jerk, you know sort of reaction either anti-communist one or your painted as a stallion is just to by writing about styling or not even about stallion in the case of course the bottom of the image constructed around telling | |||
Yeah, I think absolutely unfortunately we're out of time but I do want to thank everyone for being part of this panel. I will recommend. | |||
This book until you actually open this book. So do pick up the Stalin history and critique of a black Legend book we can get it from iskra books dot-org either as ha back hardcover or download the PDF for free to be on that was very important to us. Thanks again, everyone. I'm just going to have you tell the listeners how they can find you or your other work if you have anywhere to direct them to or any of your other works that you would like to direct them to so Jennifer where would the listeners look if they wanted to find more of your work? You are muted. | |||
Okay, Gabriel will turn it over to you. I can put my website in the chub. If people want to check it out. Okay, absolutely Roderick. | |||
The main places of course red sails dot-org it's just a collection of essays you can also email us and live mostly active on Twitter. Does that by far the easiest way to reach me at at Roderick contain just as my name is here all together Turk. That's all the story of course for me the easiest route is just to look at my institutional website, which is a state university of New York at New Paltz. And there you'll see my email address and if any of the works that I have listed on the website is of interest. I'm more than happy to share. Thank you. Absolutely. Ask for me listeners you can find me on Twitter app Huck 1995 h EC K 1995 and you can follow the show that I co-host gorilla history with gorillas being spelled gu ER are iíll a history wherever you get your podcast and that's also on Twitter at That gorilla underscored pot again Gu e RR I ll a underscore pod. Thank you again Anita and I will turn it back over to you to close this out. Well we haven't heard from Jennifer. So so I just have my I put my link in the chat and also I just to check out the critical theory Workshop that Gabriel I direct. Thank you. Thank you too, Henry Salvatore I gave real Jennifer and Roderick but this beautiful and stirring tribute to the Recording will go as mentioned in the chat this recording will be available at this link. So please share it with your comrades. We hope to see you all again soon either virtually or in person I hope you all enjoy the rest of your day. Take care. | |||
Thank you all. | |||
Revision as of 08:50, 18 November 2023
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Annotation 7
German classical philosophy was a movement of idealist philosophers of the 18th and 19th centuries. Idealism is a philosophical position that holds that the only reliable experience of reality occurs within the human consciousness. Idealists believe that human reason is the best way to seek truth, and that consciousness is thus the only reliable source of knowledge and information.
- . . . fluctuating between proletariat and bourgeoisie, and ever renewing itself as a supplementary part of bourgeois society. . . The individual members of this class, however, are being constantly hurled down into the proletariat by the action of competition, and, as modern industry develops, they even see the moment approaching when they will completely disappear as an independent section of modern society, to be replaced in manufactures, agriculture and commerce, by overlookers, bailiffs and shopmen.
1. What is Marxism-Leninism? The inverted-hegelian synthesis of two parts: Marx's theoretical modeling of capitalism and Lenin's Praxis on imperialism + how to organize the proletariat for moving beyond capitalism. To begin diving into these two halves, let us use Marx and one of his chief inspirations, Hegel. Marxism inverts, or stands on its head, hegelianism, out of which falls a materialist philosophy. More specifically dialectical materialism, akin to hegelian dialectics, but rather couched in and biased towards materialism and historical materialism which is the understanding of science and history thru the lens of dialectical materialism. What does dialectical materialism mean in practice? Consider patriotism. Patriotism under the lens of dialectical materialism is both good and bad. Which of the two qualities is expressed depends on material conditions. Patriotism in AES, namely Laos, Cuba, Vietnam, China and the DPRK is extraordinarily based. As is patriotism in any country within the anti-imperialist block, like Bolivia or Palestine. By contrast, patriotism in the USA white-washes its brutal history. Which consists of nothing but slavery and genocide. Lenin adds to the marxism body of work in several ways. These include, imperialism, democratic centralism, the vanguard party, and praxis for the dictatorship of the proletariat. An extremely brief summary: his work outlines how the most radical elements of the working class must work together, united as Marxists, under a vanguard political organization to lead the working class in the overthrow of capitalism so that communism can be established.
2. What is socialism? The lowest stage of communism. A contradictory economic and ideological state (political economy) in which a society has established a dictatorship of the proletariat, yet still has many bourgeois elements, such as billionaires or private ownership of land mixed with more socialist elements like worker cooperatives and central planning. Countries in this phase of development include Cuba, Laos, the DPRK, China and Vietnam.
3. What is the dictatorship of the proletariat(DotP)? Per Lenin’s State and Revolution, the state is a tool of and arises out of class conflict. As such, in a class-based society there is a dictatorship. In most of the world, this is the dictatorship of the bourgeois, or the dictatorship of Capital over the wage-slave/proletariat class. The DotP, then, is the reversal of the bourgeois dictatorship wherein the state has been seized by the proletariat. The DotP thus oppresses Capital, begining the transition from capitalism to communism.
4. Explain the pre-conditions necessary for imperialism. The 5 pre-conditions are 1. a dominate monopoly capitalism. 2. finance capitalism, a merger of banking and industrial capital. 3. the export of capital thru the mcm cycle, rather than mere commodity exporting of the old colonial system. 4. there exists international monopolist organizations or cartels, like the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. 5. the division of the world into global north or ‘core’ countries and global south ‘periphery’ countries. This core-periphery system is marked by the domination of core countries over subordinate countries by the above groups and tools.
5. What are the relations of production? The summation of all social relationships between people required so that they can survive, produce and reproduce. These can take the various forms of private production, as seen with slavery, feudalism and capitalism. In the form of socialism, namely thru state or public production. In the form of primitive communism thru clans or tribes production. Or in the form of communism, where production is cooperative and communal.
6. What is historical materialism? Historical materialism is the understanding of science and history thru the lens of dialectical materialism. It is the rejection of bourgeois history like 'the great man theory' and is the application of dialectical materialism's dialectical laws. This lens allows us to understand history as a series of of struggles between classes. Whether that’s slaves vs masters under slavery, serfs vs lords under feudalism, or employees vs employers under capitalism. Michael Parenti's history of Rome is a solid example of these principles put into the practice.
7. What is Mao's input to Marxism-Leninism? In the broadest of strokes, Mao adapted Marxism Leninism to the material conditions of Chinese society and culture. This is usually referred to as Marxism Leninism Mao Zedong Thought or ML-MZT for short. Some of his developments include 1. Imperialism is a paper tiger. 2. The mass line. 3. Primary contradiction.
8. What is political economy? It is the name for the school of study that lies at the intersection of political science, economics and sociology+history. The study of human wealth and material needs thru their production and distribution. The various production and distribution questions namely, by/for who, to do whats, the wheres, whys, and hows. Who does the production, where does distribution happen, how are goods and services produced/distributed and so on. As well as how the systems of production and exchange reproduce.
9. What is opportunism?
10. What is anarchism? Both Marxism Leninism and anarchism share the end-goal of a stateless, classless, moneyless (SCM) society. Where they differ is how to get there. Anarchists methods rely on Utopianism Socialism, that is, the realization of communism without any use of material analysis. More specifically, Anarchism posits that this SCM society can be reached simply by abolishing the state immediately, in full. Or with a single stroke, rather than a protracted effort requiring the use of the state and scientific principles as Marxism-Leninism advocates.
There are 6 major marxism leninism experiments thus far, these include the USSR, the DPRK, China, Laos, Cuba and Vietnam. These experiments have been highly successful. In particular, the USSR and China are Marxism Leninism experiments that gave birth to the two greatest economic miracles in the history of the human species. In a scant 50 years, the USSR went from one of Europe most backwards and poor societies to a world super-power, second only to the United States of America. China has had a similar ongoing miracle for the last 30-odd years. Rapidly accelerating its material wealth in ways the USSR could only dream of. By some estimates, China outgrew the United States economy is size and strength by 2015, and already is stronger by Parity Purchasing Power measures. Further, China is set to do so under bourgeois science standard of GDP some time within a decade as of writing. The real-world success of Marxism-Leninism is most visible in the facts that it produced the fast bulk of poverty reduction in the last hundred years and in the phenomenal handling of the COVID-19 crisis by China, Cuba, Vietnam and the DPRK.
Meanwhile what have anarchists accomplished? What anarchist experiments that have been attempted, like the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone have rapidly collapsed and failed to meaningfully overthrow the dictatorship of Capital or affect positive change in peoples’ lives. Penultimately, Anarchism fails to move humanity towards a SCM society. Ultimately, Anarchism is an ideology of failure.
- A Brief Introduction to Successful Marxism-Leninism Revolutions
The Chinese flag has
The Soviet Union and the T
- A Brief Introduction to Successful Marxism-Leninism Revolutions
The Chinese flag has 4 little stars encircling a big star. The 4 stars are in unity, in an alliance with one another, represented by the big star. These 4 stars represent the working class, the peasantry, the urban petite bourgeoisie, and the national bourgeoisie.
The Soviet Union and the Tsarist era Cuba and the Bautista Dictatorship Vietnam and the French,Japanese, Amerikans, Chinese Laos China and the century of humiliation sarist era Cuba and the Bautista Dictatorship Vietnam and the French,Japanese, Amerikans, Chinese Laos China and the century of humiliation
- timelines
The 5 flowers, the united states, and the ussr Potential timeline code. A short timeline of Marx and Engels, much of it taken from the 4th reprint of March 2020 of Critique of the Gotha Program published by Boitempo in Brazil.
| Year | Marx | Engels |
|---|---|---|
| 1818 |
Karl Marx was born in Trier, capital of the Rhine province in the Kingdom of Prussia on May 5, into a small bourgeois family. |
|
| 1820 |
Engels was born on November 28 in Barmen, Prussia. He grows up in a religious and conservative bourgeois industrial family. | |
| 1835 |
Marx writes Reflections of a young man on the choice of a profession and takes the final examination for a Bachelor's degree in Trier. Although he wanted to study philosophy and literature, he went on to study law at the University of Bonn at the age of 17 under pressure from his father. | |
| 1836 |
In the summer, she is engaged to Jenny von Westphalen, her neighbor and childhood friend in Trier. |
|
| 1837 | You transfer to the University of Berlin.
In a letter to his father, he describes his contradictory relationship with Hegelianism, the prevailing doctrine of the time. |
At his father's insistence, Engels starts working in the family business. |
| 1838 | Marx leaves law school and begins to study philosophy.
Karl Marx's father dies on May 10. |
Engels begins to write literary and socio-political essays, poems and philosophical pamphlets in different periodicals. |
| 1839 | Engels starts to dedicate himself to the study of Hegel's philosophy. | |
| 1841 | He finishes his doctoral thesis on the differences between the philosophies of Democritus and Epicurus and receives his doctoral degree from the University of Jena on April 15. | |
| 1842 | He begins to collaborate with the newspaper Rhenish Gazette (Rheinische Zeitung, in German). | |
| On November 16th, Marx and Engels contact each other for the first time, on a visit of Engels to the headquarters of the Rheinische Zeitung. | ||
| 1843 | The Rheinische Zeitung is closed by the Prussian regime.
|
In Manchester, Engels met Mary Burns (1823-1863), a young working woman with radical opinions. They began a relationship that lasted until her death two decades later, although they never married.
|
| 1844 | Writes the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844.
|
|
| In Paris, Marx and Engels develop a close friendship and together they develop militant activities, which leads them to create ever deeper ties with the workers' organizations of Paris and Brussels. | ||
| 1845 | In collaboration with Engels, the book The Holy Family is published.
|
|
| 1846 | Due to the lack of an editor, Marx and Engels gave up publishing The German Ideology, which would only be published for the first time in 1932 in the Soviet Union. | |
| 1847 | Marx and Engels joined the League of the Righteous, which would then be called the League of Communists. Both participated together in the First Congress of the League of the Righteous, where they were asked to write the Communist Manifesto. | |
| 1848 | In February, Marx and Engels publish the Communist Manifesto. | |
| 1859 | Publishes in Berlin, Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy. The book had not previously been published for lack of money. Marx comments on the case: "Surely this is the first time anyone has written about money with such a lack of it". The book, though expected, was not well received by his colleagues. | |
| 1867 | Publisher Otto Meissner publishes the first volume of Capital in Hamburg. | |
| 1875 | He writes observations to the Gotha Program of the German Social Democracy. | At the initiative of Engels, it is published Critique of the Gotha Program, by Marx. |
| 1878 | Publishes Anti-Dühring. | |
| 1883 | Marx dies in London on March 14. | He began to sketch the dialectics of nature, which would be published posthumously in 1927. At Marx's burial, he delivers the Speech at the grave of Karl Marx. |
| 1884 | Publishes The origin of the family, private property and the State. | |
| 1885 | Edited by Engels, the second volume of Capital is published. | |
| 1894 | Also edited by Engels, the third volume of Capital is published. | |
| 1895 | After long medical treatment, Engels dies in London on August 5. | |
Tankie Bunker messages
Marxism And Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Jin Huiming https://archive.org/details/marxism-and-socialism-with-chinese-characteristics
Socialism With Chinese Characteristics: A Guide for Foreigners by Roland Boer https://archive.org/details/socialism-with-chinese-characteristics
Basics Of The Theoretical System Of Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Xu Hongzhi, Qin Xuan https://archive.org/details/basics-of-the-theoretical-system-of-socialism-with-chinese-characteristics
Prominent Features Of The System Of Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Xiangyang Xin https://archive.org/details/prominent-features-of-the-system-of-swcc
Build Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Deng Xiaoping https://archive.org/details/DengBuildSocialism
Socialist Economic System With Chinese Characteristics As The Inheritance And Development Of Scientific Socialism by Du Fengen, Cheng Enfu https://archive.org/details/socialist-economic-system-with-chinese-characteristics
The principal contradiction and its evolution in the new era of the socialism society with Chinese characteristics by Xinghua Wei https://archive.org/details/principal-contradictions-china
Marxism and Its Sinicized Theory as the Guidance of the Chinese Model: The “Two Economic Miracles” of the New China by Cheng Enfu https://archive.org/details/marxism-and-its-sinicized-theory-as-the-guidance-of-the-chinese-model
China's 40 Years Of Economic Reform And Development by Xinli Zheng https://archive.org/details/chinas-40-years-of-economic-reform
The Logic Of Economic Reform In China by Xiaojing Zhang, Xin Chang https://archive.org/details/the-logic-of-economic-reform-in-china
“Not Some Other -ism”—On Some Western Marxist Misrepresentations of Chinese Socialism by Roland Boer & Ping Yan https://archive.org/details/not-some-other-ism-on-some-western-marxist-misrepresentations-of-chinese-socialism
Calibrating The Direction Of China's Reform And Opening Up In The New Era by Jiamu Zhu https://archive.org/details/calibrating-the-direction-of-chinas-reform-and-opening-up-in-the-new-era
Meeting People’s Aspirations to Live a Better Life with a Mature and Established System in China by Xiangyang Xin https://archive.org/details/meeting-people-s-aspirations-to-live-a-better-life-with-a-mature-and-established-system-in-china
Mao Zedong Is the Great Founder, Explorer and Pioneer of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics by Wang Weiguang https://archive.org/details/mao-zedong-is-the-great-founder-explorer-and-pioneer-of-socialism-with-chinese-characteristics
Combining Marxism and China’s practices for the development of a socialist political economy with Chinese characteristics by Wei Liu https://archive.org/details/combining-marxism-and-chinas-practices-for-the-development-of-a-socialist-politi
Chinese Mode of Production by Wang Ran https://archive.org/details/chinese-mode-of-production
Socialism with Chinese Characteristics: A Concise Guide by Roland Boer https://rolandtheodoreboer.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/roland-boer-socialism-with-chinese-characteristics-a-concise-guide-2021-1.pdf
On The Three Stages In The Development Of Socialism by Cheng Enfu https://archive.org/details/on-the-three-stages-in-the-development-of-socialism
Making “Four Important Distinctions” in Theoretical and Practical Issues by Qiushi https://web.archive.org/web/20171030191632/http://english.qstheory.cn/magazine/201101/201109/t20110920_111435.htm
Regarding the Construction of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics https://redsails.org/regarding-swcc-construction/
Soviet Timeline
Tsarist collapse, bolsheviks seize power, <-Pre-soviet 1922 ussr founded, 1937-38 purges,MR pact, 1964 brezhnev government takes power, 1991 ussr dissolves.
Editing Notes=
Make a redirect to a page subsection
- REDIRECT Value#Use-value
test case here: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/TestDeogeo
Domenico Losurdo: A Counter-Historian (2023-11-15 Crowdcast Talk)
Hi, welcome everyone. My name is Anita Reagan often and I'm a senior producer of cultural and special events at Toronto Public Library. Thank you for joining us for this conversation celebrating the life and work of Italian Marxist historian philosopher and politician dominical of Louisville. We start all of our events with the important reminder that the city of Toronto including all 100 branches of Toronto Public Library are situated on individual land and dish with one spoon territory the The traditional territory of the international me Confederacy the one that and the Mississauga's of the credit personation Toronto Public Library gratefully acknowledges these indigenous Nations for their guardianship this land. Since the most recent blockade and see Jean Gaza, I cannot in good conscience reidel and acknowledgement without acknowledging the ongoing settler Colonial violence both in Palestine and here in Canada in Gaza it is now estimated that 1 out of every 200 people have been killed as the death toll climbs over 11,000 the Canadian government and Elites stand firmly on the wrong side of History this past Sunday. I marched with tens of thousands of people in Toronto calling for a ceasefire. Fire and an end to the killing the contradictions are ripe and revolutionary fervor is in the air as if scrapbooks noted on social media. It is during dark and Dangerous times like these where the work of someone like the mini covid sort of is the fuel we need to keep going I want to thank my partner yvonne.stowe a kovitch for introducing me to a sir do and again thank you all for being here. A couple of very quick housekeeping items before we get started the chat box is located to the right of your screen. You're very active in there and I encourage you to share your thoughts and connect with each other. However, if you have a question for our guest today, please be sure to enter it into the ask a question box, which is also to the right of your screen underneath the chat icon. It's easier for us to To Track of questions entered there and it also allows you to upload other questions and if you look down to the bottom of your screen, there's a green button that says order a copy of stalling history and critique of a black legend that will take you to Escrow books. Where you can either purchase a copy or download a free pdf Toronto Public Library also has four copies available to check out moving us to the top of your screen you will see a TPL logo in a blue circle by clicking follow you can keep up to date with all of our excellent virtual. New event or as an event is about to go live for example on December 4th, Toronto Star books editor and author of on coughs Deborah Dundas will be in conversation with author of made and the newly released Memoir class. Definitely land right here on crowd house. I'll put these links in the chat in a minute and if you'd like to join us in person the next day on December 5th professors Norman Finkelstein and Christian parenti. We will discuss the current state of academic freedom in conversation with former broadcast journalist, Gene McGwire at the Appel salon and that is in person in Toronto. And now let's welcome the host and panel for today's event. Our host is Henry hakama lucky Henry is an activist and political Communicator who is primarily known for co-hosting the gorilla History Podcast and is co translator and editor of the new authorized English edition of Dominica. Lesotho Stalin. He can be followed on Twitter at Huck 1995
Hi Henry.
Hello Anita, it's nice to be here. Thank you so much for hosting a pleasure, and we have an extraordinary line of the panelists today starting with Salvatore and multimodal Salvatore is professor and chair of geography and Environmental Studies department at SUNY New Paltz and Senior editor for capitalism nature socialism and Human Geography journals, because research areas include soil contamination Urban agriculture dialectical materialism and socialism and Environment socialist States and environment is among his latest books. Victoria
Pull hello fantastic. Thank you, very much for inviting me. Thanks so much Henry chat Thanks for showing them for so kind of Here and next up is Gabriel Rock Hill Gabriel is a philosopher cultural critic and activist. He is the founding director of the critical theory workshop and professor of philosophy at Villanova University has published 9 books as well as numerous scholarly and journalistic articles for more information you can visit Gabriel Rock Hill the Cam
Forward to it next let's welcome Jennifer Ponce De Leon's Jennifer is associate professor of English at the University of Pennsylvania. Do the author of another Aesthetics is possible Arts of rebellion in the fourth world war from Duke University press her other Publications include the co-authored introduction to the English translation of dominical the sort of Western Marxism. I cannot wait so it's coming from monthly review press
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for being here and last but certainly not least was very happy to welcome Roderick day to the panel Roderick is editor-in-chief of red sails dot-org a free access collection of communist Works ranging from select Classics to original Marxist theory and translations. He gained Acclaim for his work on Bolivia China Fascism and his opposition to brainwashing much of it inspired by this will go in his non spare time. He works as a software developer. Hey.
Thank you. Happy to be here. Okay, and that's your panel. What an incredible lineup. I'm going to get out of here so that you can listen to this fantastic conversation and hand it over to Henry. Thank you Anita and I do want to open by expressing my appreciation for Anita and the Toronto Public Library for hosting this discussion and for inviting us to be the panel for the discussion really was Brave of the Toronto Public Library and anything particular to organize this event with this panel on these two. Topics and so all of the credit goes to her for making it possible and I also want to thank my panelists that we have before us for their work on lesueur do as well as beyond the sword. Oh, I'm really looking forward to the conversation and lastly I would like to thank oscura books the publisher of our new edition of Stalin history and critique of a black Legend So, I'm going to open the conversation today. Convening this panel is really Introducing why we're here. So I think the impetus for convening this panel is really twofold of course Lasorda was always relevant and should always be relevant and always will be relevant but in addition to the recent release of the Stalin book, there's also a forthcoming release of Western Marxism, which will be talking about a little bit later but the Stalin book in particular is an interesting story and just briefly We talked about how we need to have this exchange of ideas and I know that one of the future events is featuring professors Finkelstein and parenti about you know, freedom to expression within the academy. This book was actually subject to something similar in insofar as there was a publisher and I'll just say Verso books whose published several works of lizard owes who outright has denied for several years to publish the Stalin book to the point where we decided that we would just do Do it ourselves Salvatore and myself and iskra. And again, thanks to oscura. Not only agreed to publish the work and get the rights to publish the work but also is a need to mention make the PDF available for free for everyone which I think is a critically important thing that we that we did in one of the reasons that we were so enthusiastic to work with them was that willingness to make the PDF available as as well as all of our other books. So go to Escrow books dot org and check out their catalog.
I'd like to get into the conversation today before we talk about the Cerritos works. We should probably talk about pool of sir. Do was I know that several individuals in the chat have talked about how they are very fond of lucero's work, but I am sure that not everyone who's listening to this is familiar with lesser do himself. So I'm going to turn this over to Salvatore at first to talk about who was Dominica lesueur do can you take give us a brief biographical background on him and maybe focus on his engagement with politics. Thanks very much. Sword of the main goals for do was a political philosopher historian right years. Sometimes he would label himself that way applying historical materialism and dialectical materialism to the development of ideas and ideologies and you can think about these two volumes that we are Focusing on as part of that project. He was a professor of the University would be you know in philosophy, but it was also a historian of sorts as well. And certainly that is much of what a devoted his work towards his is to look at the historical context of different philosophical movements the The breadth of the philosophical works there and philosophers they looked at is quite large Focus primarily on European context although the latter part of his life. He was who certainly becoming much more acquainted with and making more effort towards understanding the Chinese context and and the political philosophies are coming out of the People's Republic of China. And he was also very much involved with communist movements in Italy throughout his life and he was close to the Italian Communist party until it fell apart, but then continue with the refund that silicon when you start and then eventually became a member of the re-founded potato nice te the tagliabue we found it. It's a link Italian Communist party I think in 2016. Two years before he perished from a brain tumor took him away while he was writing extensively on the future of Communism and which is a book that is yet to be translated he was also very much a contributor to a critique of post-structuralist or post whatever works want some of these key contributions are there to sort of a critical
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Urkel Much more into hegel's influences on locks and Heidegger as well as really looking much more into hegel's influences on locks and Tangles and bringing forth it I suppose that what became a bit of a controversial understanding of Hegel and not sure whether we'll be able to get into that but but trying to get at some of the problems historical. Problems of Marxism but especially Western Marxism with respect to addressing dealing with some basics of ontological aspects array of of politics like some like the contradictions that politics are involved in so he was in the thick of that kind of discussion and trying to contribute and Standing of marches in there would be going away from the I'm trying to remember the how to translate this into English, but his worthy in was adding a bailout beautiful spirit. It's kind of understanding of politics in which people can absolve themselves by basically not being in the thick of the action and not taking power and responsibility that comes with that. So so there was part of his efforts, especially in the latter two decades of his work. Organization called aside from that he was the director of a Marxist organization called Max 21 would be the I guess the translation and he was also renowned for his work on damn she and interpretations of Graham Shand works and he was also a well known as part of one of the several but not a seesaw. He entered societies that there would be focused on Hagel. So he has spanned a great deal of different kinds of work. The breathwork is waiting impressive to say the least and most of his works as far as I understand. It not being translated into English yet, but that's something that perhaps we'll be able to discuss later. Yeah, absolutely. That's something that we're going to pick up on very shortly. So, thank you for that Salvatore the next topic of discussion and as I bring up this next topic of discussion, I also want to remind the listeners that if you have specific questions for us or we would like to follow up on something that is said you can do so in the Q&A box we have 23 minutes roughly for Q&A after the interview portion here. So make sure that you're putting those questions in there so that when we get to that time we can hop right in.
The next topic is dominical to sort of thought. So again, if listeners to this program have not already read his work they may be a little bit confused about what sets Lacerta apart from other thinkers that you know, we understand that you wrote a book on Stalin but what specifically is this book on Stone we know that he has a book on Western Marxism. He has a book on liberalism, which I have next to me on the other side, but what is his thoughts specifically so I'm going to ask two questions and direct this to To chip it's Gabriel first, but other panelists also feel free to chip in as Gabriel finishes his answers. So what we're kind of the influences on lesser do thought who were some of the thinker's that influence the way that he analyzed things and then how did he synthesized these various strands of thought from various thinkers into his mode of analysis that then we can talk about after. Thank you Henry. So loose or do Drew widely on the tradition that runs from mercs and Engels through Lennon and up through contemporary both thinkers and activists within the Marxist and broader leninist tradition and within that tradition I think that one of his Central methodological contributions has been do position himself as a kind of counter historian who's working within the Imperial core. I think we all know that history is controlled by those who control the
Over history operated by the control over history operated by the ruling class is in part an attempt to control the present and the future and to dictate to people the temporal coordinates of their existence where they came from what's going on now and what's on offer possibly within the future the sword o in being a counter story and push back very very strongly against that and I just like to highlight rather quickly some aspects of that. Counter Always situated class struggles in the plural and hopefully we'll come back to why it is that it's so essential that it's in the plurals because it doesn't simply mean the struggle between different classes in the economic sense, but it's also struggles between genders. It's a struggle over land. It's a struggle between races and Nations and many more things we can unpack later those class struggles are of course they demonstrate that nothing in history is natural. It's the product of those struggles. Secondly Lasorda always analyzes the social Totality right? So he's not simply doing a fragmentary history or focusing on a particular discipline or particular area is instead situating philosophic and cultural work in relationship to the socio economic base. And the transformation of that base over time. Thirdly one of his tactics, which I find particularly interesting and many people I think enjoy and less or do is he demonstrates the profound contradictions that rack whose wall history meaning that many of his histories draw explicitly on Was story ography needs to demonstrate that this was story ography needs to draw on a factual basis, but they're tasked with what historians that is with doing the impossible that is making factual reality look like it's not actual reality. And so the sort o will not only point out those contradictions but drawn Booth while historians in order to Marshall and argument that is ultimately obviously a Marxist or the next point that I have is that the social totality for Lasorda was always Of his analysis is drawing of course particularly on Lenin and others within that tradition. Is he centers the colonial question and he centers the Imperial question, so you cannot understand what's going on in the west if you don't understand what's going on with the rest. So to speak and in fact, it's not only understanding the point of view of those who have been colonized by Imperial capitalism, but really centering that as one of the principal driving mechanisms behind the heh Understands history is he understands history is a dialectical process of development and so any particular event in history needs to be situated in relationship to the general or Universal developments within history and recognizing that history is a process and I think this is absolutely essential and has for me been very informative in regards to my own worldview we have to understand that socialism itself is a process and it's a process that he describes a very specifically as a process of learning so socialism, there's no blueprint. It doesn't fall from the sky. It's human beings who make it but they make it by learning from their mistakes and evolving in the direction of Greater egalitarians. ISM sustainability and other things that are hope will be able to discuss on the rest of the call, but I'll turn it back to you. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that was a great summary I want to make sure that they open up the floor to Jennifer and Roderick now in case either of them would like to contribute to this topic before we move on to the next one Roderick. I know that you if for example have written on Twitter as well as else Is in terms of what Le Cerritos thought kind of is in terms of when we're thinking about lesueur do and we're thinking about what his thought means what kind of modes of analysis are he using you've done pretty good summaries on that. I know you've mentioned it on some several posts on red sails you've done it on Twitter X. Yeah, I can I can I was going to mention that towards the end, but I can I can bring it up right in right now. So so I like we're Gabriel said of Right every also mentioned that sort of takes from the Traditions with Marx Lenin angles. You know marches tradition, but I think for Le Sueur do it seems to me like one of the big guiding stars, of course Haven he doesn't only examine Hagel was an object if he's also like a discipline Havel and so Hagel, what does it mean to analyze something that fatality, right? I think this is best exemplified by his book liberalism. We're in his book liberalism. He Is if you are a cheerleader, yes that it's it's almost like his argument is if you are a cheerleader, yes that book liberalism. I come from history if you insist on defending the United States as the land of Freedom, you're obviously missing missing the picture right? Like there's slavery, you know genocide secularism Etc. However, if in in dieting the United States you also Eclipse completely the dimension that a lot of people just continuously proclaimed the United States the land of Freedom, right? Like why how is it possible like how is it possible that are the same time you have like the proclamation of this is the land of freedom and emancipation and of slavery right and we'll certainly refer to this as the Tangled Paradox off slavery in American liberalism and in a normal honest and as Gabriel point Doubt not only in America also in the rest of the world. So, yeah, so this this drive towards analyzing the totality means not leaving anything behind it is not sufficient to present your case. You kind of need to present your case, but also account for the case of your adversaries for your interlocutors or whenever you disagree with it is not sufficient to say this is my position it is important to also explain why somebody else might have the opposite position and then from that totality Drive your actual conclusion. So yeah, let's do that. Just I think that's about it. Terrific Salvatore. I'm going to turn this next question over to you, which is so we're talking about his mode of analysis now, but we haven't really talked about the topics of focus within his revoir. So I'm wondering if you can just take that perhaps in a semi brief way because listeners he has a huge bibliography particularly in Italian. It's rather Limited in English still, but we're working on it but a huge revoir, so I'm wondering Salvatore if you can just take it.
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Crack Memorizing some of the main topics of his focus and what is available in Italian before we then move on to what's available in English? All right, so that gave your embroidery if such a fantastic understanding of the Life Works that I'm basically going to just be listing maybe some of the topics which is not going to be an exhaustive list. But I mean, he studied by the way and Pasqual a solution who was a Senator communist possibility incidentally and so the his so just to say that lawsuit was not starting from scratch. I mean at the University level, you know already. He was developing his his methodology with with them quite a bit of infrastructure and in the University where he studied but but he went beyond that and developed a suppose one could say also Marxist or graphical method I think that cable was alluding or say stating this before and I just repeat it. You know, there is underpinned by Marxist dialectic in historical materialism and that included look at Politics in the history and philosophy and politics in France and Germany, especially the 19th century that was something that he's written about a critical evaluation of philosophers like Kant I did mention before me try and hide ago I mentioned earlier and Appraisal of the thought of lukacs and in fact that He's that some sort of was inching closer to the later or lukich in some of his writings at least from what I recall goes? He's written about lending's thought and I mean he identified as a marxist-leninist you mentioned before he wrote about G XI several Works actually and of course, there's the critiquing the very foundations of liberalism as already discussed by Gabriel got control. Drake which is one of the foundational contributions least in my view not just and I mean he wrote about liberalism in his variegated forms. It wasn't he wasn't just a painting liberalism as some sort of Monolithic entity by any means and also the varieties of Captain's politics liberalism represents, especially in the context of US History it was interested I don't think he really followed through as much in his works by was very interested in The history of Black Liberation struggles in the u.s. In particular and also Native American struggles, but also he took it took pains and to to evaluate as well in in a manner that's much more constructive then then almost any writer from Western Massachusetts in if you like, although he doesn't belong to that.
Respect somebody broke with that entirely but he did provide writings about the USSR and the People's Republic of China from a non revisionist. I mean an explicitly non revisionist largest lenders perspective and this is part of the obvious thing contributions and I mean he was also writing and critiques of revisionism and of revisionist politics within Western Marx's and also debunking the concept of totalitarianism along Liberal narratives that and also kind of other kinds of liberal narratives that are basically anti-socialist anticommunist in character. He's was quite active in doing a lot of critique of that especially, you know with our end and those kinds of writers. And of course one of the works that we are I guess presenting about in some respects is is not just an overall critique of Western Mark. She's in there that will be forthcoming soon. Thanks to Gabriel Jennifer and others but but also also about the Legends surrounding the figure of styling and which also brought up. It was a very controversial book in Italy as well. Be controversial which hopefully by the end of this session will be self-evident that that control BC should not even exist.
Yeah, excellent. So to move on before we talk about Western Marxism, we'll talk about Western Marxism in one moment. I just want to focus a little bit on what is available in English as of today because Western Marxism as Salvatore mentioned in this week been mentioned several times before is forthcoming and I know all of us are very much looking forward to it Gabriel in Jennifer so, you know, thank you for doing that work, but there are several works by Lesotho that are available in English. I know I've held up several of them. In front of the camera, I mean I can keep holding up new ones in front of the camera all the time, but there are several works of lesser do is available in English and I am aware that we are conversing in English and therefore everyone who is in the audience is going to be an English speaker either as a primary or secondary language and so you would be able to read these works. So I'm going to just open it up for discussion for everyone actually for just a moment to discuss what works are available in English we can talk about Books and we can talk about articles. I know Roderick you've done some translation of some articles of his on your website as well. So feel free to bring those up. Just maybe tease what the book is and kind of the central argument within it. I don't want to get too bogged down because I would like to highly recommend the listeners to check out the works themselves, but if we can bring up a few of the works that are available in English and what the central thrust of those arguments presented within those books and articles are that might be useful for the listeners. So whoever wants to go first. Feel free to hop right on it.
I'm happy to start out if you like one of I think is most important books available in English is class struggle and class struggle really pushes back very hard against the myth of white male Marxism this idea that Marxism only has to do with white workers in the Imperial Court who are like industrial workers and it completely rejects the idea that Marxism is somehow a European Theory. That's not germane to struggles elsewhere in the world and it also rejects the very I'd spread assumption. I'll use the language of the non Marxist philosopher Nancy Frazier to juxtapose struggles for recognition against struggles for redistribution. What Lasorda demonstrates is a class struggles within this broader Marxist tradition that we've been talking about has always been understood in terms of a struggle both for recognition and for redistribution, so you cannot separate the kind of economic struggles from the ideological struggles if you will and at the same time that class struggle is a general genus Is very briefly in passing but he goes into how there's owners versus workers. How nature as a source of wealth is a site of class struggles how the struggle between nations in the Imperial Court and the nation's who have been colonized by them is absolutely Central to the evolution of capitalism and the the modern world and the struggle against domestic slavery as a form of class struggle class struggle is of course people like What was the struggle between man and woman. What was the first form of cholesterol historically for angles. So I couldn't recommend that book more strongly.
I just like to recommend an essay of his that I find really useful and it's called his China turn to capitalism that was published in the International International critical thought and I think this is an excellent essay for really assessing the developments of the Chinese Revolution the continuities between Mao's and amount of thought and reform and opening-up and also it really lays out the kind of because pretty good. Populism on which I'm going to be talking about more a little bit later. So I'd highly recommend that as a
So we've talked about the class struggle book and he's commentary on China. Well sort of has the books that I approached the pseudo for initially our you've held up liberalism and one revolution as well and I think and there's also non-violence so these are all very I would say explicitly they're very fun with politics and World politics and it's almost like an title. It's
Surprising. Is that after kind of enjoying all these books I decided to look into the more philosophical ones, which is an area that I didn't have that much interest in primarily a high degree book The Hagel book and the Nietzsche book and initially I was like, well, I'm just going to read them because I'm a fan of you know, like I've enjoyed the other words. So let's check them out. I was actually very surprised that I think this was something I was gonna mention at the end, but I'm bringing up again a little bit further. It was very surprising. How much I got out of those books I think he's books on just the philosophical biographies of these thinkers and there's more writers Kant It hasn't been translated to English and grab she either they're super there off a kind.
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And also the very problematic ways in which within the communist movement some parts of the communist movement selling this V.
I did and yeah, it's I would strongly recommend I think people should approach the more political or explicitly political works first, but if they like what they're seeing they should not be at all apprehensive about checking out the other philosophical books. They're much more accessible and much more pertinent. I've enjoyed the other words. So let's check them out. I was actually very surprised. I think this was such something I'm going to mention that the end but I'm bringing up again a little bit further.
Got out of those books. I got out of those books, I think he's books on just the philosophical biography. So these thinkers and there's more right there's content. It has to be translated to English and grab she either they're super are there of a kind with the other ones? It's surprising. It's surprising that from a book on reach a I understood so much about the 19th century, but I I did and yeah. More political or explicitly political works first, but do they like what they're seeing they should not be at all apprehensive about checking out the other philosophical books. They're much more accessible and much more pertinent than than it seems at first sight.
Salvatore I'll let you answer, however you want but we haven't talked about what the Stalin book is yet when I know that that was one of the impetus he's for this this event. I know that if people are not familiar with what the book is they might be thinking. Maybe it's a biography Maybe it's you know a history of the Stalin time and government. It's neither of those things listeners, but I'm sure that you'd rather hear from Salvatore then me so I'll turn it over to Salvatore you can talk about that and then anything else in English by the sort of that you would like to Thank you everybody. I'm sure how you could describe it even better than I can but I mean as a title suggests and this is something that perhaps Bears repeating over and over again. It's about the history of as literally of a legend around the figure of Stalin. It's not really about Stalin per se in fact, so it's very far from a biography but it's it's much more looking critically and through
The varied over time is looking at how how the figure of selling featured in different ways according to different political formations. So it's something that again what I was alluding to earlier it should not be very controversial. I mean he's tracing basically according to very mainstream writers how How the image of Stalin was constructed and in a contradictory fashion of before during and after World War Two And basically, I mean to put it I guess bluntly the showing of the same words are of the people who are anti-communist how silly their arguments are it in so many ways and also the very chromatic ways in which And within the Buddhist movement some parts of the communist movement styling has been constructed in a very simplified fashion in such a way that it's rather unhelpful politically. So that's really just to very to be very brief about it. If people are interested in knowing more about the styling himself. That's that wouldn't be the book to read. However Ruby To contrast those biographies with with the very meticulous work that those who have the offers in the book with respect to the constructs about styling because often times about graffiti is of styling are initiated by rather a historical understandings of that figure and also stereotypes that are there are basing on no empirical evidence. So those those are So I guess maybe I could I would like to add to that. I'm not sure what else could be said about it. It's a little does work is is much broader and then you know having a critical evaluation of the way in which Stalin has been made to Be Imagined especially in the core capitalist countries like this one like where I'm sitting in the US and that so You can also a good compliment. That book is the liberalism account of History because it really is a good complement to to that and enables one to understand it in more clearly. What's at stake with different ways in which styling is is is constructed in different decades. So, I'm sorry I just leave it there, you know that we could talk longer about the book but I wouldn't want to take too much. Each time about that g necessary. Yeah. Thanks, Salvatore and I have done many interviews about the styling book already. So instead of us talking too long about that book in particular. We'll just direct the listeners, you know, just Google Stalin history and critique of a black Legend you'll find many interviews that we've done about it already and more coming out even this week. I believe on it. So just keep your eyes peeled for that, but I do want to thank Salvatore for bringing up the liberalism book at the same time as the Stalin book reason being is that as I just Critical media narrative analysis. It's not a critical media narrative analysis. It's not a biography. It's looking at the construction of a narrative and how the narrative can be changed over time to what ends the narrative changes the project that the narrative changes are fueling and what is fueling that an impetus for changing those narratives and the liberalism book does is very much the same thing but instead of looking at The Narrative of an individual it looks at The Narrative of a political economic current and so we hear all of Of these histories of liberalism how liberalism has been built over years and how you know, the philosophical basis on which liberalism stands and how through iterations we become more and more, you know mature in the liberalism that we're experiencing in the world. What was sort of does he really unpacked that in shows that counter history Jose? What liberalism is built upon what liberalism does constitute and as Broderick mentioned earlier that constitutes set Constitutes slavery. It constitutes slavery. It constitutes oppression. It constitutes wage slavery all of these things are constituted in this part of that narrative analysis. So I'm happy that celebratory. You mentioned the Stalin book in the liberalism book side-by-side because while the topics are very different I think that that's not all the liberalism does but that narrative analysis is something that you see present very firmly in both of those books and it's important to take those two books Side for that reason. Tanya is not Yes, I do think it's important to emphasize though that one thing for me I read a bunch of books. But what makes us so special is that he insists to see also he gives plenty of time for liberals for make their own case. Okay when you touch we need talks about Stalin you really get to understand not only why some people love styling but also I some people hated Stalin and not only in the sense of Weaving a narrative but in send in the sense of like these are the genuine feelings of two sides of a struggle and in the case of liberalism he makes very sure that this reader you come off not only understanding the counter history, which is the meat of the book which is like be you know a critique, but you also see emphasizes the feeling of Freedom that is experienced by the Liberals at the top of the settler Colonial project America is Spelled by themselves at the exclusion of what they're doing as a freedom unprecedented, right? So you come away not only understand the counter history. But also the the history right like the textbook history is also very very accounted for it's not only Secret Story. It's both stories melded together. And I think that's guys, I think that makes me very very special at least in my experience. Absolutely. I think that that's a critical thing in just from the perspective. Of the Stalin book as I was along with Salvatore one of the translators of the work going through it was Easy because there's over 1,000 in-text citations and if you look at the references that I remember the count correctly. It's 346 references in the back of the book and if you count them the vast majority are anti-communists and anti-stalinist anti Stalin thinkers anti Stalin journalists anti stolen politicians Etc. He allows them to make their case in their own words and then shows what that case is, really rooted in so Roger I think that that was Is a very important point I do want to turn to an upcoming book though, which we've mentioned throughout I Salvatore I see that you have your hand raised but will hold it for just a second because for time timely as sake I want to turn over to Western Marxism for a moment because as we've mentioned throughout this conversation, Jennifer and Gabriel are undertaking this project of translating Western Marxism into English and it will be available next year from monthly review press and we're all incredibly excited for it. So Jennifer, why don't they turn it over to you first. Can you talk about Western Marxism in the fundamental argument within that book just as a teaser for The Listener so that they know what they're going to be able to get next year when it comes out. Yes. Well, thank you. So the book is coming out I Gabriel edited it. It's this translation was done by Stephen Colbert tryla and in addition to including a long introduction by Gabriel and myself the book also includes the first English translation. Important lecture those sort of presented on this topic of Western Marxism in 2007. So the book basically lose sedates one of the major splits in global Marxist debates between what we sort of and others refer to as Eastern and western Marxism and it's a rejoinder to carry Anderson's trotskyist assessment of disciplined. So rather than referring to geography Eastern and western Marxism referred to two different political orientations, which have manifested themselves across the globe Eastern Marxism refers to those who have already identified with so In cool of you as in cool of USSR Vietnam Korea So Far Western Marxist by contrast describe that describes intellectuals who reject these real-world efforts to construct socialism in favor of intellectual practice essentially some even present their distance from power as a kind of epistemological advantage to discover some kind of moral integrity versus so Gus. Well Eastern Marxism is dedicated to the difficult and drawn-out process of building so
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Ursula These do not live up to these intellectuals imagine standards of intellectual or helical Purity. So the soil is critique, really focuses on philosophical currents coming out of the funk for school and French Theory as well as other fingers that are proximate to these Traditions like my heart or my rotor Aunty Hannah Arendt instar Bushi check. I mean, it's important to know that this is he's not offering a kind of ad hominem attack that goes after these thinkers for their individual ideas. As in all of his work, he was cerdo elucidates the objective social forces that have produced Western Marxism as a remarkably consistent ideology and imperialist countries as well as among class strata in the periphery that aspire to kind of the rewards of Empire, right? So to elucidate the material basis of Western Marxism Lacerta is really drawing a lot on the line ends lapidary indictment of chauvinism in the Socialist movement Within imperialists. Critiques of Lenin's really Syrian critiques of revision and revisionism. Which means you know refers to the gutting of Marxism revolutionary core really Center on a condemnation of the social chauvinism that played members of the European members of the section s International and what's important is Lenin identifies the material basis of the chauvinism and he argues that the imperialist extraction of monopolist super profits from peripheral societies basically created a labor. Working-class resulting in their language Ramat meaning their identification with the interests of their own National visualize. He's over in against their fellow proletarians and other countries. So likewise looser do is really demonstrating how many Western Marx's chauvinism, you know is similarly based in a political economy of imperialism and that it is any shows how he expresses itself in paternalistic attitudes towards the efforts of workers and peasants in the peripheries to struggle against imperialism the identifies. I just want to talk about some of the main features that he dint identifies across the various thinkers who he examines. You know one is the very classic idea that this kind of chauvinism is so embedded that Western Marxist you can you know dismiss socialism. I mean a real socialism around the world without even actually studying any of these movements in any serious manner there's also sort of also identifies populism, which I mentioned earlier as a really key feature of Western Marxism and this is something I really important critique that he did with, you know elaborates and his work that he's
Also drawing on Blends critiques of a populism and this is basically a kind of disposition that wants to celebrate the moral Excellence of those who are oppressed or oppressed and bereft of power without actually scientifically identifying the material forces that cause that impression or a way to struggle against it. And so it's the kind of this type of populism often leads intellectuals to side with the oppressed only as long as they are losing not if they actually Age to have successfully gang state power and this is something that you will sort of really he critiques and shows the kind of irony of this that basically any idea. He relates this to kind of hegel's criticism of a disposition and Christians who in order to you know, accomplish their obligation to serve the poor actually need poverty to and persist indefinitely. So this kind of populism that looks or do identifies he sees it. Among intellectuals, who are opposed to political parties, who are opposed to the exercise of state power because these ideas about getting with under the idea that or getting organized through the party form might some inexorably lead to new forms of Oppression that would besmirch the moral Excellence the downtrodden and this is another reason why Rebellion ism is another light Motif that he identifies and this is a kind of tendency friend. Own sake without close to sort of celebrate Insurgency and Revolt for their own sake without close attention to the content context or concrete political content of that that Rebellion is MM and so you see Western marks is just kind of exalt the sort of figure in Revolt in Revolt, which is often a kind of production of their own self-image and this is something that you will sort of drawers and really important critiques. Excuse me important insights from ISM can And itself to very distinct political projects and as we know you're the deep and expansive history of dissident politics should have clearly demonstrated to us that this point that this is the case since we know that the u.s. State often, you know promotes right wing and even Philip fascist dissident projects and finally I wanted to know that he either didn't see that, you know, it was sort of than identifies is this kind of utopia ISM and a kind of trafficking in magical thinking whenever if there is any concern with a proposing an alternative to the extant order on one of the things I find really useful is the sort of shows how this kind of messing ISM reflects the influence of judeo Christian ideologies on many Western marxists and do this commencing isn't takes a lot of different forms it basically expresses itself in a kind of tendency to project a vision of a socialist future a future that is completely other than want to totally Exist as if it didn't have to actually be created out of what exists right and this idea this future that is projected as completely other therefore cannot somehow be arrived at through the telluric pack path and extant institutions including the role of Love Parliament parties States. And so forth It's supposed to somehow arrive more or less miraculously. So and I just want to say, you know a lot of what did I was sort of diagnosis is really applies to a lot of Not beat not a language school as I mentioned and I'm thinking D Colonial period post-colonial Theory ever pessimism the ball during studies. And so forth and finally, I just want to note that you know more than a critique. This book is also really a call to intellectuals to develop the rich tradition of critical communism. You know, which is which means learning from the Practical lessons of the global history of class struggle rather than Of ideas or purported theoretical blueprints. Terrific. Thanks for that overview, Jennifer Gabriel. I hate to do this to you, but I can only give you two minutes to add anything that you would like to on Western Marxism Jennifer covered. Absolutely everything. So let's keep moving on terrific appreciate that for the sake of time and Jennifer again. I really appreciate that overview. It was tremendous. So I want to move on I guess before I move on I'll just mention that there are a lot of other Lasorda works that are available in town. In which are not available in English yet that hopefully will change soon. I know Salvatore and I are trying to get the rights to some more of the Cerritos Works to also translate the our publisher iskra, Salvatore and I have another book that's coming out at this for next year, but it's not with sword also, we'll talk about it later, but there are other works that can be translated so listeners what what something I would recommend you to do is contact some Publishers and recommend them to look at translating a lesser do as well because there is a huge catalogue of his Works, which some of your favorite Publishers should absolutely be looking at but until they do we will continue to do that ourselves. So moving on I want to talk a little bit about the relevance of lesueur do outside of Academia because I understand and the listeners will probably see Jennifer Salvatore and Gabriel. You're all academics Roger. Can I are not But most of this conversation has been are carry academic and focus it has been talking about how loose Erdos thought furthers various academic disciplines in various academic Fields, but of course we cannot confine our thought to the academy the point is to take that thought that is in some cases developed within the academy but then take it out of the academy and apply it into the real world and that's going to be the focus of our next topic which is the relevance of Lesotho outside of the academy. Me I am going to stick with her academics to begin with though. So Gabriel Jennifer Salvatore. I'll start with Gabriel. How can scholar activists make use of lucero's work outside of that academic context?
Well, the sort of and I think the same goes for the three quote unquote academics if you just listed on the call was a lifelong activists and so did not accept the Ivory Tower notion that Booth while ideology imposes on all of us meaning that you know where ever you make your work is where you live and that's it and in that regard the sort of Zone intellectual work, I think made an enormous contribution to providing what I would refer to as a kind of cartography of global class struggle. In a war because there is an international class struggle going on then you need. People doing different tasks and one very important one is mapping the very nature of that struggle and I'll just point to one conceptual intervention, I think is very important that the sort of made and speaks volumes to the nature of the struggle that's currently going on and also Echoes some of Anita's very important points that she made and the opening of the call concerning the settler Colonial project that's ongoing in Gaza and that is that loose or do diagnose the history of totalitarianism as a concept and he demonstrated that it was originally Developed by Communists to describe life under capitalism because under capitalism you depend for your means of survival on a whole series of relationships that basically have to do with the wage relation as the the means of survival in that regard the ideological conception of totalitarianism. That was developed later by people like Hannah Arendt and members of The National Security State and United States is the recuperation of the Communist understanding of totalitarianism, but it tries to do the impossible.
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And that is Communism or somehow the same the sort of theorize this in terms of a distinction between naturalistic D specification. The specification is the process by which a particular group or body politic D specifies other groups meaning it rejects them and excludes them from the group naturalist.
Sorry, my mute just went on we're good. So naturalistic D specification is a process by which certain groups are excluded from the community based on quote unquote natural properties, right these properties can be ethnic. They can be racial. They can be gender. They can be religious Etc. This is the kind of core and essence of the history of racializing processes and it is integral to the history of fascism and we see it operative today in the way in which Each the Palestinians are referred to as human animals who must be eliminated by many members of the Israeli government against that he juxtaposes what he calls moral political these specification and that is the form of D specification operative in the history of the communist movement when in moments of Crisis certain members of the community either need to be excluded or band in various ways the reason for doing that is not because of a natural attribute that they purportedly have. It's
Is it their political and moral decisions, right? So when Stalin was Waging War against the Nazi war machine he was very clear that it was a war not against the German people. We don't hate them as if people are not going to destroy them as a people. It's a war against the capitalist ruling class and the way in which they've used fascism in Germany as a weapon of war against the global socialist movement. So I'll leave it at that. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm going to turn it over to Salvatore and then Jennifer intern feel free to go right after. After each other but do try to keep it brief. I know that that is very difficult, but we are running a bit short on time at this point just like then I would stress the the parts. I guess we'll have to build off of Gabriel really it's the ideological struggle loss or do is I think if you read some of these some of the works that we've mentioned including the work on the image of Stalin and County History liberalism for example, it's a school you can learn from it in terms of how to take apart a whole bunch of narratives in their own terms and turned them against themselves. So I think that's that's very useful as possible the ideological struggle that also has to be parallel with the struggles of the streets and everywhere else so I leave it at that.
I don't need to add anything else on this question. I know we're short on time. Okay, I appreciate that. And I also you know Echo everyone that has talked so far. I do want to turn it over to Roderick though because Roger you and I are the two on the panel that are outside of Academia. So what can readers that are I'll try to keep it very brief. I've already talked most of the points that I had brought up. Okay, so let's go do in his polemic with Jacques Vallee trotsky's from Friends hee hee hee highlights two parts of his analysis that I think of. A important. Okay. What is the use of a serial for like a regular working slack like a regular person or even an active just a regular person? I think the content of the book is very important, but I think very important also is the way he he argues differently as I've highlighted many times two things that will sort of highlighted one of this is use of comparative Statics compared to stick to something that we would today call. What about many people would accuse of what about is you're trying to understand China you say? Oh they whatever people Over the United States has prisons to where people are like, oh, that's what about Chism. This is a way in which people are more or less disciplined into not being able to approach a topic. It's like a little bit like being told because out of your pay grade like you should just stay out of it. You don't ask too many questions.
Are you looking focuses on it? He defends comparative Statics and I think he defends the right of people to explore a topic by asking. What about ISM type questions and the other think he rejects is and he indicts not only anti-stalinist but also also styled himself or engaging in The Narrative of betrayal the reason we're trying to understand something you're trying to understand not in this context. It's like you know, the Stalin period of the USSR and Everyone is accusing each other of being a backstabbing. It's a cross key back.
Then Stalin is solid backstop Trotsky and working class was backstabbed then push it came and backstab people and China came and they were backstabbing and the and so this is all just like backstabbing and backstabbing your backstabbing. I'll sure do says this is not you're not gonna get anywhere like this you need to actually analyze the objective contradictions that led to this outcomes. And why do people are launching these accusations and try to give you credit. Thank you trustee the credit for having trying to do his best and and Stanley was also trying to do His best but even though they were both trying to do his best there were still problems. Just trying it's not you know, right and so in doing this was to do in teaching people. Hey you should do more. What about ISM and you should not do weak nerves to Trail the service teaching people to think better and I think this is a this is something that he takes from Hegel Hegel wanted to do popular philosophy people laugh about it because so considered impenetrable these days but he was trying to popular philosophy and Lenin was also like me to teach people to think that Philosophy is a useful tool for the working class and G. She of course great educator and all these are marks on angles as well. So all these are huge influence in the studio and I think the studio really not only is trying to teach the content of these books, but he's also trying to be a role model for people. How you can think how you can think about these questions and I'll get trapped in like a dead end in a ditch just not being able to ask me more questions or becoming a becoming a very eccentric person can have no longer talk to liberals because I think very different than you do. Sure could do that. We should have a double rollerball understand so they think so, I think yeah in doing this I think will sooner basically teaches teaches philosophy to any reader correctly impertinently and I think it's useful even if you're not an academic it's just useful to approach the world. Terrific we have one question left and I have enough time built in for one minute for each of you. So just like a presidential debate you get closing statement and it'll be the same statement for everyone and I'm just going to read off the list of people in order that I see them to answer this question. So Jennifer, Salvatore Roderick Gabriel the question is what is looser do mean to you. I just said before I think it goes I think he's a okay. Great Jennifer you're up. I just wanted to say one of the things that I really am help me is understand the importance of development and as key to the struggle against Neo colonialism and I think that he you know, really clarifies that the struggle for sovereignty of God for people who have historically been subject to colonialism and Imperial Stout pretty
That goes is necessarily tied to the struggle for development and that goes is profoundly under appreciated by people in the you know, overdeveloped imperialist core. And so you know, he really gives us this question for the Western life that asks, you know are the unfulfilled Promises of the anti-colonial Revolution a sufficient reason to align ourselves with the neo-colonial counter-revolution and he emphasizes that that's the question that really face Us in the bus. So for me, how about among other things this will do is is a model of what to do in terms of intellectuals of any sort intervening in politics and in discussions every day discussions as well in terms of unjust understanding ones role and the saying that context in which one is speaking on his writing and how important that is to that one can Help avoid or at least contribute to avoiding the kinds of construction of ideas that actually run counter to any any sort of socialist revolutionary potential if you will that that is what I one of the one of the major things that I get from Reading those who those and really understanding ones historical context and acting accordingly and with and and in response.
What? Gabriel I think that was sort of gives us a nuanced understanding of the dialectics of socialism in a sense that socialism is very difficult project of development particularly because of the imperialist siege that has been imposed upon socialism and that he presents us and this here. I'll Echo Jennifer with a very Stark choice and that is do we want to be on the side of the difficult project and the process of learning that's referred to as socialism. Mmm, or do we want to be on the side of the those who accommodate capitalism?
As see soon as they see how difficult it is for socialism to develop in the real world as opposed to and the Ethereal mind of those who presume to know. Yeah, I would like to Echo everyone and just adding briefly on behalf of myself that looser do is a really great example of someone who is absolutely uncompromising in their analysis is willing to delve into the topics that generate controversy is willing to go out and be an activist on top of doing that scholarship on controversial topics and to not back down when being challenged by unprincipled critiques, which we have seen many of Of Lesotho and he has been public in debates with individuals who have taken in some cases scholarly debate against him and in some cases outright slander against him and has shown that know it is an ideological disagreement and we are uncompromising in our ideological standing in our ideological position. This is really inspiring to me to see that you can have somebody who is a renowned philosopher. I know our friend Emmanuel mess calls him the greatest.
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21st century. I think that that's in many cases true, but we see that despite being this, you know, highly revered figure in many circles. He is still willing to get into those controversial topics that he knows are going to get mud thrown on his name and in some cases at him personally and still do it in an uncompromising and principled Way full of scholarly rigor and full of activists fervor. So on that note then Then we're going to close out this interview portion. I'd like to thank the panelists for answering the questions that I had posed. But now we're going to open up the listener Q&A portion of this discussion. Like I said earlier if you have a question that you would like to ask to the panelists today you can type it into the Q&A which is on the side of your screen right now we do have some very good questions already and so what I will do is I will read some of them and have my panelists take them we have quite a few. Whew, so panelists. I am going to ask you to try to be brief and answering some of these excellent and questions because we do have only about 22 minutes before we have to close out. So the first question that we have is from Nia who asks a very good question and I see Roderick smiling because we both know who Mia is this is a very good question and it's almost the inverse of the question that we closed up with which is which do what do each of you disagree with lesser do about So I can discuss it with me I before any like I'm I really like sir do so. It's often like well, what do you not like about him? I finally had to say not like because I think even agreement or a sensible disagreement I am pretty enjoy the but anyway the show do very much defense nationalism. I think he has nationalism was a real actual historical Force. I as a person do not have Strong National links to Any Nation. I'm not an American. I live in Canada my family hails from Europe for me fully agree with Wilshire do about the absolute Primacy of nationalism in the struggle for Liberation leaves me a little bit a drift because I don't know exactly does that mean that I can't really contribute or is it mean that my contribution will always have to be auxiliary. I haven't fully resolved. What is my relationship to that pieces of those? I think It's a strong thesis. I think he backs it very well. He says that no revolutionary all revolutionary movements have been led by coming over like many successful revolutionary movements have been led by communists.
But no revolutionary movement has been successful without drowning himself in National soil write something like that. And so the question of nationalism with key defensive very well and I don't really know what my relationship to it is. It's not necessarily a disagreement. It's just like a it's an open question. Where do I stand in relationship to that pieces? Yeah, so I apologize in person, so to speak. So yeah, that's that's for me the question that I grappled with.
Perhaps I can say something to that for me to be even able to disagree with your swords are would necessitate a much greater depth of understanding of Hagel for example in the other kinds of philosophers. And so for me, it's difficult to find disagreement because I don't feel like I have the instruments to necessarily disagree, but I am perplexed about his reading of Of Hegel in a particular way like in terms of thinking that the reason idealistic or historical idealism current within Marxism from the outset and you know that may be true but I need to investigate that further and I have not read all of those with this book. So it's not you might not be a disagreement in might be something that I just need to explore. There
Gabriel Jennifer either of you want to chime in or should we move to the next question and God was moving to the next gen. Yeah, I'm finally moving on. Okay great. I'm going to move to the question that is posed by Bradley another excellent question. And again listeners you can ask questions in the Q&A section Bradley asks, especially what flight you've shared about Lasorda was background the grampian notion of Common Sense comes to mind as an ongoing challenge How would you approach a discussion and encouraging someone? With the hegemonic narrative bushwa historiography at hand to give
Kind of book a chance and I believe by this book. They're referring to the Stalin book, but it also could be with reference to Western Marxism. Absolutely.
I could say go ahead erotic you should go I've already went before I can have two years ago. I'll be I'll be quick I think the pseudo and his book on Graham. She's excellent in that regard really does drawn the distinction that gramsci mix between common sense and good sense and the ways in which Common Sense often does have certain truths kind of encased within it but they tend to contradict other truths and so part of the process of cultivating what gramsci calls good sense is subjecting what you've learned from Common Sense meaning the Things that you've inherited the World Views you've inherited two critical analysis self-reflection the scientific method and so one of the strengths of Lasorda's kind of pedagogical undertaking is that he often begins with kind of debates where they're at and then moves people slowly through them and so even someone who would be hostile to Communism or Socialism or Marxism analysis could very well read just about any one of his books because he provides so much data that is
Actually from the common sense Cannon being in the Canon of Boudoir history of what thinkers Etc and he walks you through them and shows what is coherent. What is not coherent and I think therefore makes very compelling arguments and is not necessarily just preaching to the pub Choir by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, I basically was going to say something very similar, which is that will sure though he's speaking from within the hegemony are in a little bit like as as was pointed out by you Henry, I think like the amount of citations he draws from standard sources. He's citing Silence about Montefiore. He's citing Robert service. He's citing like familiar names. He's not citing some obscure, but he's not only psychomotor. In fact, he rarely side followed him. He will cite them. So these this means that the shooter is Is trying to reach the reader were there at most likely they are not trying to come in as a huge like with completely know it's like agree with me and also trust me with all my own private sources that you know her before he is building off of what he's already there. I think in general that's the that's the that's the strength of those rules work. It's he's reaching people where they're at and to add black one. I understood the question also asking what a person today possibly.
Pages of learning on styling Like what's the point? That was a long time ago? I think those sort of makes the point in the book and I think someone's read the book should be able to kind of sell the the idea or the argument that Stout and Trust Karen just people that exist on Once Upon a Time they represented Tendencies like he talks about Trotsky is representing the tradition of charismatic power and as Stalin as representing the tradition of legal legal. The name is escaping the legal Authority right like trucks Q represents Charisma style represents kind of like starchiness, you know way. Okay and even if Josh can Stalin or gone Those those Tendencies to latch onto Charisma and to latch onto tradition or still here with us. So if you understand the conflict well then if you feel like these conflicts are still relevant this old dispute between you know of the sound era still very relevant today and I think some of you yeah, that's making the book relevant to people today is one way in which you can tell people. Yeah this is this is worth your time even though it seems okay. Generally just very briefly if this time just to Grant it in at least the book on the image of style just to follow through for what Gabriel and not everybody said, you know, just pointing out perhaps sometimes what is common sense in the 1940s that Stalin was Time person of the year and then shortly thereafter selling is equated to Hitler should already create a little bit of this juncture in the minds of many people. Just maybe doing that and let's sort of course goes into much greater detail on that but I think that's that's part of the work that needs to be done only shows the way forward. I'm going to ask the next question. Unless Jennifer you have something that you want to add here. Okay next question, but before I do I just want to mention since Roderick brought up citing Molotov versus citing month of your I just look through the the Stalin book very quickly. There's a grand total of zero citations of Molotov in it and he cites Montefiore and no less than seven different points throughout the book. So you know that just speaks to what Roderick was saying and as a kind of a Funny sight the next question, I think I'm going to direct it towards you first, Salvatore. As I know this is something that you have talked with me a little bit about its question from hakan, which was what was looser do stance on the
I maintain contacts with the new pc I maintain contacts with the CPC and I know Roger keep also written things on Lasorda when China on red sails as well. So the two of you are probably who I'm gonna send this over to First. Remember who holy know much more than I I suspect. I mean Jennifer already pointed out the article in the international critical thought that actually well represents how not short of them was what direction we saw there was moving politically. I'm not I'm not sure. I think he went to the People's Republic of China at some point and I think he even met with Ronald boa was an excellent scholar. Our on politics and philosophy has been there Gummy's party of China and beyond that so he was already making moves like a couple of decades possibly like about the late nineties about can't recall, but at the stance on the People's Republic of China was generally an understanding stance and not one that was prone to weekend rough judgments, but trying to
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Republic of China That's sort of my understanding of it and and really actually spelling out how critiques of the People's Republic of China which really predicts of the Communist Party of China ill-founded for the most part and in fact again going back to work gadreel, Jennifer and Roger have already stated so demonstrate this kind of this tendency of those who who refused to take any responsibility. Whenever you have a revolutionary movement, you know compared to those who actually are in the Revolutionary Buddha are actually accomplishing things which is to say the Communist Party of China have been accomplishing a great many things and and this I think that's that's what you would stand about the People's Republic of China. Did he with the new Congress part of Italy he became part of it he joined in 2016. I'm not sure how much detail like I should go into that. I think we should move on because we're very short on time. Do you have to add to that very briefly if you have something else? Oh Jennifer I know that you've cited that article earlier, so you might have something here as well. But let's let's yes add to it but try to be brief that very very briefly. I linked the domain goes China and insight to the state of our state education and CPC by Rolling for he's written about this our own border also the occasion of the sort of passing route than I can't find a link to It. He wrote a nice little Memoir kind of love him traveling by train with the pseudo in China. I'll show those pills which I know very positive like he defends China's socialist project in an interview with what example today in Brazil. I can find a link but he actually goes really far out. He calls dense helping one of the greatest communist leaders of the 20th century and he says that he eats it's not fair to only judge the leaders by the winning. Her power like the struggle for power in the revolution, but you also have to give credit to the leaders that are mostly successful in construction the part Revolution is at least a two sided process, you know, we need power. Yes, but also constructing a new regime I think he gives a lot of credit to Denzel pain and so it's very positive and things helping the really was very positive and optimistic over China he thought of course if something were making trade-offs that we all understand the trade-offs is not like a kind of say, ah, he he never Like the he's at the socialism is is a difficult learning construction process. So yeah, very positive and China and I really recommend those were curious to check out the article the Jennifer recommended but also the the Memoir that bore wrote is very very sweet and I really like
Jenna
Go on to the next cake great. So there's a couple of really big questions and I am trying to figure out what ones will have time for because that's always the you know, the threat that the end but since we did mention Heidegger a few points during this this interview, perhaps we can be briefed on this answer I think that it will be possible here Amir asks what we're Lasorda's of you on Martin Heidegger. Did he consider him an important philosopher and defend his Nazi past? I think we can be brief with that. But whoever wants to take it. Go ahead.
I can take it but I'm Lily psychedelic here. So you can else to go probably there's nothing wrong with being a non-academic Rogers the shooter was assured of defended. Okay, well soon as a tactic that he uses for Nietzsche and hiding her book and he Compares him as like peas in a pod little bit he thinks that a lot of people in defending higher and Nietzsche as not that reactionary they actually downplay their intellectual contributions. So we'll show you is politically completely opposed to me. Each a higher but as an intellectual he thinks that they were making like they were mounting a strong defense for reaction. And so for instance when Heidegger's black books came out which were like a scandal like, oh turns out Heidegger really wasn't at Sea he was really really antsy. He's not like oh an important is mmm. Accident know having it was committed to the project. It's the black books came out and the load of Defenders of hiding your had to kind of like recommend them and also wrote a piece for the guardian called the black team Turin surprising like if you were paying attention if you were taking Heidegger, seriously, listen Tinker with this like anti modernism and he's like destruction of like opposition to reason and stuff like that you would understand it. Yeah, there was a real kinship there between him and the Nazis and and this should be yeah he was he was a philosophical Champion for the Nazis for A reason so he's at the same time. I would say damning him politically as like
Of a bad project but he's rescuing him intellectually as like talented philosopher. So that's how I understand the book on Heidegger is hard to come by it was translated by John and Marilla Maurice, but it's fantastic. I really recommend it if you are all curious about most on a tiger Any other brief comments on this or shall we move on? Okay this is from RE going back to the points on populism. Can you talk about lucero's position that Marxism itself does not lie in eyes poverty, but many of the movements that have seized power in the name of Marxism have done. So can you talk about the key differences between this View and a more populist to you now this is a very interesting question and could be a very big one. But again we are running short on time. So try to paint a grand event. So this is something that he addresses really directly in that article that I mentioned where and he's just to give you he quotes for example, dang and saying that Unless you are developing a productive forces and raising people's living standards you cannot say You're Building socialism. So he really, you know critiques that kind of idea that socialism would be about with the equal distribution of poverty and he really argues for the importance of developing productive forces and this kind of goes at and again just to go back to what I talked about earlier that this is both necessary to meet the needs of people who have The subject to imperialism dependency and uneven in unequal development, but also that this struggle for developing the productive forces is really necessary to avoid the imperialist subordination, you know, and becoming once again that you know semi-colonial or you know, neo-colonial subordinate to Imperial powers.
Okay, I'll move on to the next question that another very useful question for people who are reading lisaura do and are looking for something similar what communist historians that write in English or at least have translations in English. I would have worked comparable to Lesotho. Did he ever recommend any this is from Tony?
Few quick ones that come to mind Walter Rodney Ludo Martin's Michael parenti, of course, I'm sure there are others that I'm forgetting but that's a quick, you know, they're definitely in the same Zone and way of thinking I'm sure others will have other idea Gerald Horne absolutely read all of his works. He cited in Lesotho as well. I will add.
Yeah, I would say all these thinkers again. You should mention want to Rodney Michael parenti Gerald Horne. Well, do you mention I endorse all these are all great. I would say that none of them are quite the closer during the philosophical twist to the whole thing, but they are maybe Rodney comes closest lady. I don't know but but yeah there are a lot like we could even depart a little bit further out for example, Nia like co-editor at red sails has written a very nice piece called blood sugar. It's William. Robert is a very different kind of thinker. He's an angle analytical basis and stuff like that, but he he's an out. I don't know if there's a list some points of similarity with the unclear Roberts and lesser. Do we tend to think there's some interesting similarities there. I also really like a thinker and from China that it's there's been an effort to try to make him controversial in the west because he translated she made for the Chinese context, but Jen she going Jim Siegel also has these like sprawling historical narrative he The roots tries to really get to the roots like why was Europe so kind of like exploratory? Why wouldn't your touched Africa you'd like to colonization whereas when China went to Africa he bled to trade for whatever he's up for. It's a Chinese perspective, but nothing wrong with that and he's also very materialistic thinking, isn't funny actions. So yeah, I would have I would have really clear Roberts and Jesse don't do this.
Jen All right, then. I'm going to I'm going to kind of combine two questions here. It's going to be the last thing that we have time for. We've got one or two minutes left. So again brief is the operative word here so Ian asked about the Stalin book and why its controversial I think that that can be extended to looser do more generally and then also one of the other questions I had which I will try to find here was asking about why are some of these things that list? Do was analyzing relevant today still? Like why is looking at Stalin relevant today or Y is looking at the trotskyist, you know critique of Stalin relevant today when Stalin and Trotsky are both long dead, so these two these two questions about why there is this controversy around the cir do around this book particular, but more generally as well and why are some of these topics that was Certo is talking about which may be divorced quite some time temporarily from today. Why are they still relevant to today's questions and Today's struggles I can just jump in I think on the relevance question, you know the sort of really one of the things that I appreciate so much about his work is his attention to imperialism as a central contradiction of class struggle and and really also historicize he really historicize our contemporary moment as one in the kind of you know, onslaught of neocolonialism. Generally U s---led. Neocolonialism u.s. Let imperialism that is absolutely relevant to everything that is going on and you know, just as
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Me The barbarity of imperialism around the world including in Palestine. And so I think Melissa Rose perspectives absolutely essential for understanding. A
Come perhaps you'd like Italy that work in particular of sounding was controversial but only because there are some segments of the left at like to continue with this Trope of using styling to batter, you know another part of the left. I think that's a large to a and what goes on about this and it's just sometimes just need your every action has very little to do with the content of the book which is really sad and it's very very that show in the way that sometimes that book had been revealed. Don't know about in the US, but it seems that it's going to be similar just you mentioned stallion immediately, you know you get this knee-jerk, you know sort of reaction either anti-communist one or your painted as a stallion is just to by writing about styling or not even about stallion in the case of course the bottom of the image constructed around telling
Yeah, I think absolutely unfortunately we're out of time but I do want to thank everyone for being part of this panel. I will recommend.
This book until you actually open this book. So do pick up the Stalin history and critique of a black Legend book we can get it from iskra books dot-org either as ha back hardcover or download the PDF for free to be on that was very important to us. Thanks again, everyone. I'm just going to have you tell the listeners how they can find you or your other work if you have anywhere to direct them to or any of your other works that you would like to direct them to so Jennifer where would the listeners look if they wanted to find more of your work? You are muted.
Okay, Gabriel will turn it over to you. I can put my website in the chub. If people want to check it out. Okay, absolutely Roderick.
The main places of course red sails dot-org it's just a collection of essays you can also email us and live mostly active on Twitter. Does that by far the easiest way to reach me at at Roderick contain just as my name is here all together Turk. That's all the story of course for me the easiest route is just to look at my institutional website, which is a state university of New York at New Paltz. And there you'll see my email address and if any of the works that I have listed on the website is of interest. I'm more than happy to share. Thank you. Absolutely. Ask for me listeners you can find me on Twitter app Huck 1995 h EC K 1995 and you can follow the show that I co-host gorilla history with gorillas being spelled gu ER are iíll a history wherever you get your podcast and that's also on Twitter at That gorilla underscored pot again Gu e RR I ll a underscore pod. Thank you again Anita and I will turn it back over to you to close this out. Well we haven't heard from Jennifer. So so I just have my I put my link in the chat and also I just to check out the critical theory Workshop that Gabriel I direct. Thank you. Thank you too, Henry Salvatore I gave real Jennifer and Roderick but this beautiful and stirring tribute to the Recording will go as mentioned in the chat this recording will be available at this link. So please share it with your comrades. We hope to see you all again soon either virtually or in person I hope you all enjoy the rest of your day. Take care.
Thank you all.