Topic on Talk:Patriotic socialism

This person, as well as all openly Patriotic Socialist elements have been removed, and this ideology itself is firmly discredited.

I am not a PatSoc. I am a Communist living in the United States. I want my country to embrace socialism and anti-imperialism because I want things to IMPROVE for my country. Why? Because I LOVE my fellow citizens. Imperialism HURTS my countrymen (globalism and monopolies seeking profits abroad has deindustrialized my country)

You might dislike certain PatSocs. That's fine. But to reject patriotic socialism is fucking intolerable. I am angry because the implication is that in order for me to be a "good communist" I must hate my country. Why shall I improve something if I hate it? shall I not just sit back and let the imperialist kill my fellow citizens?

This is asinine. I will not change the page to be pro-PatSoc. But we need a serious, encyclopedic tone. I am exhausted by this which appears to be an ultra-leftist deviation.

"I hate America, vote for me" -- Communists running for office?

"I hate America, here's why you should listen to me" -- Communists standing on their Soap Boxes in the Town Squares

Did the communists of the 1930s reject proletarian patriotism? Does the modern CPUSA reject patriotism? Did British communists in the 1930s reject patriotism? Anyone who LOVES their country would want an END to corruption, wars of aggression, and other various evils carried out by their state.

Shall Americanism be the sole property of the corrupt, evil, greedy bourgeoisie? Shall the American proletariat not seek to re-take it for itself, fighting against the New Economic Royalists? Seems defeatist to me.

I reject national chauvinism. I also reject anti-patriotism. A patriot would want to end neoliberalism and imperialism. A patriot wants peaceful coexistence between civilization-states, a patriot wants colonized groups to have sovereignty, economy growth, social support, and all the resources necessary for their national cultures to be preserved and enhanced.

sigh.

Alias, the wolf takes off its sheep clothing

The United States of America has never been anything more than the following: Genocide, Repression, and Lies. I say that as an American and as a Communist as well.

The USA can never be anything more than genocide, repression, and lies, and if you were to remove all three, the nation you would create would be anything but the USA. You could never improve your fantasized view of what the USA is, for the USA has NEVER been any sort of improvement to this Earth, it has only stolen, killed, and raped. The goal should not be to "improve" the USA.

Indeed, we must destroy America and bulid anew. That is the only why to liberate our people from this prison, to truely better humanity; to remove this dark-spot on the map known as the USA.

You may claim to not be a PatSoc, and you are right. For much like other PatSocs themselves, they are really just Far-righters that still use the hammer-and-sickle. "Globalism"? this is nothing but Ultranationalism, should you have any historical understanding, you should, for that matter, MUST hate America, lest you are a Nazi afterall.

Call me or other people what you want, "ultra-leftist", "woke", "globalist", I have heard it all from Infrared and Caleb Maupin and other Far-right populists, But I know something; ultra-rightism is not tolerable. Ultranationalism is not tolerable. Genocide support is not tolerable. As somebody who claims to be a Communist, it must be "Workers of the World unite!", not "White-American Workers of America Unite!".

The present "ultra-leftist" wording shall stay. National Bolshevists have no place here.

Brb going back in time* to tell British communists to stop advocating against their empire out of patriotic love for their fellow countrymen, so I can get my ass beat by the serious British communists who are patriotic and hate the crown and empire and capitalism.

*to the peak of the British Empire, that is. Since the US has taken the place of the UK in modern imperialism.

I do not see how this infantile non-response changes the fact that Manafest Destiny is indentical to Lebensraum, and more Native Americans were killed by settlers than during the holocaust

Unlike the USA and Canada, Britain was not forged out of genocide. Nor was the British Empire stoped because of "serious British Communists", it ended due to the blood and tears of native resistance groups in Africa and India.

I reaffirm what I said; ultra-rightism and revisionism has no place in Prolewiki, or any Communist community for that matter.

What do you, as an American, actually want for America? do you want it all to burn? or do you want a stable, socialist, plurinational state? I see you’re a “nihilist” according to your profile page, so perhaps I already know the answer.

I wish for the United States of America to be forever removed from this planet, and for a new socialist state to takes its place. Did certain sections of the Russian Czardom burn when it was replaced by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

Yes, I want a stable, socialist, and Anational state, one where the people in said state regard the USA in a similar way to how we regard Nazi Germany.

Since, in the last part, you expressed an argumentum ad hominem, I shall do the same. I am a philosophical Nihilist; I understand that morality and truth are purely Human inventions and are therefore meaningless in regards to the rest of the universe, of course, because you are an American Ultranationist, and because I hear that most Americans don't know where Canada is on a map, you therefore do not understand what I am talking about, see how enraging ad hominems are?

I do not see how this is meaningful. If somebody denys genocide, they are a genocide denier. If somebody hates social progress, they are a chauvinist, if somebody wants to serve their own nation about all else, they are an Ultranationalist. If somebody talks about how the "bankers" and "globalists" have taken over a nation's "deep state", they are a conspiracy theorist (and likely an anti-semite as well).

"Patriotic Socialists" are all these things, and more. To call a cat a "cat" for being a cat is correct.

Comrade Juche, we've had this discussion before, remember? I imagine it must be hard for a person living in the imperial core to understand. But, in any case, I will patiently respond point-by-point and remind you what you still haven't understood.

I want my country to embrace socialism and anti-imperialism because I want things to IMPROVE for my country. Why? Because I LOVE my fellow citizens. Imperialism HURTS my countrymen (globalism and monopolies seeking profits abroad has deindustrialized my country)

Loving your people has nothing to do with patriotism. Patriotism is the love for a country, and every thing it stands for. The United States of America does not stand for anything except genocide, imperialism, oppression and exploitation. Being patriotic in the way these PatSocs are is to either neglect this aspect of your country or even embrace it. You are misusing the term patriotism.

You might dislike certain PatSocs. That's fine. But to reject patriotic socialism is fucking intolerable. I am angry because the implication is that in order for me to be a "good communist" I must hate my country. Why shall I improve something if I hate it? shall I not just sit back and let the imperialist kill my fellow citizens?

You confuse your "fellow citizens" with your country. Your country is the state, its history and its legacy. Your country oppresses your fellow citizens. If you love your fellow citizens so much, you should definitely hate your country as it is, at least if you want to be a "good communist", or rather, a principled Marxist-Leninist. But do not take my word for it. Funnily enough, Lenin struggled with a group of chauvinists who called themselves "social-patriots", which according to him should be named social-chauvinists because in his words the term social-patriotism "embellishes the evil". Here's what Lenin had to say about the PatSocs of his time:

That is why our “struggle against annexations” will be meaningless and will not scare the social-patriots in the least, unless we declare that a socialist of an oppressor nation who does not conduct both peacetime and wartime propaganda in favour of freedom of secession for oppressed nations, is no socialist and no internationalist, but a chauvinist! The socialist of an oppressor nation who fails to conduct such propaganda in defiance of government bans, i.e., in the free, i.e., in the illegal press, is a hypocritical advocate of equal rights for nations! (link)

Lenin advocated for revolutionary defeatism, which is to actively engage people to defy your country and your government against their imperialist actions. Take a closer look at the picture of the PatSocs in the article, proudly wearing the flag of the US. Does this look like revolutionary defeatism to you?

This is asinine. I will not change the page to be pro-PatSoc. But we need a serious, encyclopedic tone. I am exhausted by this which appears to be an ultra-leftist deviation.

"I hate America, vote for me" -- Communists running for office?

"I hate America, here's why you should listen to me" -- Communists standing on their Soap Boxes in the Town Squares

On the contrary, I think this page is very on point on what Patriotic socialism is. But revolutionary defeatism does not mean to openly state that you hate your country to attract people to the socialist cause. This reductio ad absurdum does not help you at all. But to revert the situation, you don't have to appeal to ultra-nationalistic imagery to attract workers to the socialist cause either, the same way you don't need to be racist to approach the poor whites to socialism, you don't have to be misogynistic to approach men to socialism, etc. By appealing to patriotism in an oppressor nation, you are promoting bourgeois nationalism, not fighting it.

Did the communists of the 1930s reject proletarian patriotism? Does the modern CPUSA reject patriotism? Did British communists in the 1930s reject patriotism? Anyone who LOVES their country would want an END to corruption, wars of aggression, and other various evils carried out by their state.

Your country is based on corruption, wars of aggression and other various evils. If you want an end to this, you de facto want an end to your country as it is. A revolution is a violent act of destruction. A revolution destroys the old, and by destroying the old, it creates the new.

Shall Americanism be the sole property of the corrupt, evil, greedy bourgeoisie? Shall the American proletariat not seek to re-take it for itself, fighting against the New Economic Royalists? Seems defeatist to me. I reject national chauvinism. I also reject anti-patriotism. A patriot would want to end neoliberalism and imperialism. A patriot wants peaceful coexistence between civilization-states, a patriot wants colonized groups to have sovereignty, economy growth, social support, and all the resources necessary for their national cultures to be preserved and enhanced.

There's something else you need to understand. "Patriotic socialism" is somewhat of a movement, represented by specific people which the article indicates. It's not "patriotism" in abstract, the article describes this specific group and movement which calls itself patriotic socialism. However, this does not absolve patriotism in imperial nations. I assume your emotional attachment to this concept is an influence of the Midwestern Marx group. Midwestern Marx is great, but their flaw is on this specific point.

You do not reject national chauvinism, you are drawn towards it, comrade. I'm sorry to say, but your position is borderline chauvinism. You cannot be proud and patriotic of a country which is the most powerful force against the liberation of the peoples in the whole world and call yourself a communist. If you are a communist and you are aware of your country's history, you have absolutely no reason to call yourself a patriot and appeal to nationalism.